buyer beware

[Gregory OConnor]

Probably a nice bus and like your brother, probably a great person. I
wonder if the words that create the confidence and fade the anxieties
in those few short hours are followed up by "No warranty express or
implied, as-is"

I sold a 95 class 8 truck with a second 5,000 warranty. I was
confident in the condition and backed it up by agreeing to pay for
the second 5,000. of repair on any single failure for the first 2
years. There is no reason anyone should believe anyone who ends a
confidence disortation with a disclosure.
GregoryO'Connor
94ptromolandCa

--- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, "Gary Miller"
wrote:
>
> Thank-you Mike for the positive assessment of my coach.
>
> John, I've only briefly scanned this thread but it appears as if
> you're in a quandry as to the value of a restored FC vs. the 'deal'
> of a PT in original condition for the same price. You're also
> concerned with misrepresentations and proper documentation.
>
> What I would offer you is that to perform all the necessary
> rennovations on a complicated coach like a Wanderlodge requires an
> enormous amount of personal time. Even if not doing the actual
work,
> it requires time to ensure someone is doing it correctly. These
> coaches were built to a very high standard, and shoddy workmanship
> simply won't do. Like wearing plaid with stripes, the clashing in
> workmanship and quality standards jumps right out at even a casual
> observer if it's not done properly. While they're not difficult to
> work on, it's a bit more time consuming than most shops want to
deal
> with because of accessing the various mechanicals.
>
> What I have on the market (when Jeff finally gets around to
changing
> the price on his website for me) is a coach I absolutely adore. I
> planned on using this coach for the next dozen years at least, and
> had thoughts of taking it on grandious excursions with my wife and
> boys every chance I could. Every time I worked on a system, I
> considered that I never wanted to worry about that system again, so
I
> cut no corners. I took my time, I waited for the right parts, I
> upgraded or changed things so the same failures wouldn't occur
again,
> and I documented everything so I would remember when I hit 50 what
I
> had done when I was 38 on it.
>
> I marveled at the engineering of things, but also realized that
> better parts now exist. Where necessary, I changed things for the
> better. There are more things to do, there always will be. But
the
> major items are done. The things that could nag at me on a hot day
> while climbing a mountain, the things that could ruin my vacation,
> they're done. I won't have any of that. Major breakdowns aren't
> part of a family vacation.
>
> I don't have to sell my coach, but the reality is that my wife and
> kids want to vacation with our FAMILY friends, and those friends
> don't have big, beautiful Wanderlodges, they rent cabins and condos
> together.
>
> So I would say my coach is a great deal. I've got every bit of mid
> 30's into it. Which makes my meticulous and careful labor,
hundreds
> of hours of it, free. I'm offsetting the labor with the fact that
I
> have enjoyed several family trips with it and those memories are
> worth it.
>
> The whole thing was an experiment under the 'hindsight 85' rule
which
> states that at age 85, one should be able to look back and laugh
> about things ventured, not regret having never tried. So I bought
> it. I labored on it, hoping to keep it forever, and fill it with
> memories, but in the end it makes no sense to keep it if it won't
be
> getting used.
>
> I think $38,500 is a steal considering the documented meticulous
> upgrades and renovations in this coach. We'll see...
>
> I read this and other forums when I have a few moments and there
are
> always folks who are exasperated by the effort to fix or trouble
> shoot a problem. If you were to research my posts you'd find that
I
> rarely posted like that, if ever. I love a good challenge and I
> enjoy the opportunity to disassemble something to make it work
> better. This coach has that philosophy poured all over it.
>
> If someone is looking for a good coach to get a hold of, I'd say
this
> is the one for the following reasons. I don't suddenly need money,
> it's paid for. I didn't just have a major life change requiring me
> to sell it, I'm not sick and tired of it, I'm not being told to get
> rid of it, I've enjoyed owning it, I'm a Wanderlodge enthusiast,
and
> more. It's all positive here, just time to move in another
direction.
>
> I'm really just looking for the right guy to have a smooth
> transaction with. If you want to come see this coach, come on by.
> I'll set you up and leave you with the books until you call me to
> come on back. Stay the night if you want to. I'm confident that
in
> a few short hours, your anxieties will fade and you'll want to take
> her home.
>
> Gary Miller
> 83 FC 33
> Mi8lwaukee area - For Sale
>
> --- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, "bubblerboy64"
> wrote:
> >
> > Leroy, Your comments seem logical to me. That means one of two
> > things: You are correct or we are both deluding ourselves; not
> > certain which. I guess I must be getting serious I put my
trailer
> up
> > on eBay to see what happens. I can afford to buy the bird and
sell
> > the trailer later but the wife has already ask me about were I
> expect
> > to park it. I have a lot to learn but one thing I have concluded
it
> > pays to keep her happy. So we'll see what happens over the next
> > couple weeks. Thanks again to all who have taken an interest in
me
> > and my "issues" John Heckman
> > >
> > >
> > > A pre-owned H2 Hummer about 35K comes standard with GPS, moving
> map
> > display, DVD, leather seats, electronics inverter and room for a
> > large tent. It will fit in most any campground. No need for a
> toad.
> > Missing optional items include, bed, hot and cold running water,
in
> > motion Sat TV, kitchen, convection oven, bathroom and other
> important
> > amenities. Looks to me like 35K for a top quality FC is a steal.
> > >
> > > Leroy Eckert
> > > 1990 WB-40"Smoke N Mirrors"
> > > Niceville, FL
> > > On Panama City Beach-Folks in the tents are hot---forcast high92
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: Mike Hohnstein
> > > To: WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com
> > > Sent: Friday, May 04, 2007 10:35 PM
> > > Subject: Re: [WanderlodgeForum] Re: buyer beware
> > >
> > >
> > > Take heart!! Gary Miller has an exceptional example in your
> price
> > range. Go to http://www.millercoachworks.com FC33, ignore the sold and
47k
> > asking price, it's on the market for mid 30's and a real deal at
> that
> > figure.
> > > MH
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: bubblerboy64
> > > To: WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com
> > > Sent: Friday, May 04, 2007 7:32 PM
> > > Subject: [WanderlodgeForum] Re: buyer beware
> > >
> > > Mike, That's the kind of information I need to hear. I was
> > looking at
> > > some older NA coaches and it seemed to me that $30k might do
> it.
> > > Apparently not? I am just trying to gather together an idea
of
> > what
> > > is involved. I was thinking that perhaps paying $20 or about
> that
> > and
> > > figuring another $10k might do it. I am not going to be able
to
> > > invest $60K. I just would not get my moneys worth for what I
> > would
> > > be using the coach for. I am not looking for a 10 out of 10.
> But
> > I
> > > was thinking that for $30K a guy could have a very
presentable
> BB
> > > which was solid. If you are telling me you bought the best
> you've
> > > seen and still needed to spend another $45k doing the labor
> > yourself
> > > I pretty well better forget it. JEH
> > > >
> > > > I started out with a "fixer" for 15k. Rear bath FC.
> > > > I wuz lucky, it's the cleanest FC I've ever seen, and I
have
> > > inspected a few. Bought it on the internet from on line pics.
> > Blown
> > > engine. Figured I fix it up a little and flip it. It turned
out
> > to
> > > be so nice, decided I never find a better one.
> > > > Now that I am putting the final touches on the charge air
> > cooler
> > > install, not to mention the exterior restoration, the change
> over
> > to
> > > 24.5s the unending chassis electrical issues I'm getting real
> > close
> > > to $60k and not much of that is farmed out labor. I did all
the
> > > heavy mechanical work and most of the inside repairs, water
> > system,
> > > lighting, vents, etc.
> > > > Depends on how you choose to spend the money, most of the
> good
> > > deals are when somebody dies. It pays to be a buzzard.
> > > > Cold but true.
> > > > Mike Hohnstein
> > > > Germantown, WI
> > > > 83 FC 35rb
> > > >
> > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > From: bubblerboy64
> > > > To: WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com
> > > > Sent: Friday, May 04, 2007 1:48 PM
> > > > Subject: [WanderlodgeForum] Re: buyer beware
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > And again my position as a buyer. My first preference would
> be
> > a
> > > > completely "ready to go" older FC rear bath coach needing
> > > nothing. At
> > > > a price which is "fair". And I have seen some likely
> prospects.
> > > > Coaches which have had leather interior and repaints which
> have
> > > > pushed the asking prices into the range of the pushers. See
> > > that's
> > > > the problem. I've fooled around with antique car
restorations
> > and
> > > > this is so similar. A restored vehicle is not likely to
sell
> > for
> > > the
> > > > cost of the restoration. I feel some sympathy for the
seller
> > when
> > > > you know what he has invested to get it right but as a
buyer
> > > paying
> > > > for his restoration just doesn't work either. So what's a
> nice
> > > coach
> > > > like I am looking for really worth? Well, it's worth
exactly
> > the
> > > > price negotiated between the seller and the buyer and there
> is
> > > the
> > > > rub. There are a couple real nice newerFC buses on the Bill
> > Board
> > > > right now with prices from 50 to 60K. So are they in
> > competition
> > > with
> > > > the pushers (?) I can't say. And what does that tell you
> about
> > > the
> > > > older FC's. One fellow has a 1975 listed for 30K. I e-
mailed
> > him
> > > > see what he comes back with. From what I have been able to
> > figure
> > > to
> > > > this point his bus would have to be a ready to go coach
plus
> > > some.
> > > > But on the other hand as a buyer I could see that a guy
could
> > > easily
> > > > spend $15k and then in a short time spend an additional
$15K
> to
> > > get
> > > > it right. Price is certainly not cost. Not to belabor a
> point.
> > If
> > > > you have something worth the money do the work required to
> > prove
> > > it.
> > > > I could see spending $30 for a really nicely restored older
> > coach
> > > but
> > > > it would have to be exactly what I want with the proof
there
> > of.
> > > So
> > > > I guess what I am saying is that I personally am not
looking
> > for
> > > a
> > > > fixer upper. I can do some repairs but frankly its not my
> idea
> > of
> > > > fun. Certainly others would feel differently. JEH
> > > >
> > > > wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > On 5/4/07, davidkerryedwards wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Hence, the market for older Wanderlodge's with some
> needed
> > > > repairs will
> > > > > > probably always be a little more healthy than for
> > refurbished
> > > > coaches.
> > > > >
> > > > > Kerry,
> > > > >
> > > > > I agree to an extent. Personally, I think most people
would
> > > rather
> > > > > have a refurbished coach - I know I looked for one that
was
> > > > advertised
> > > > > as not having any problems. The disconnect between buyer
> and
> > > seller
> > > > > comes in price: Most buyers aren't willing to pay a
premium
> > for
> > > this
> > > > > work.
> > > > >
> > > > > In my search, I found that people were tending to
> > sell "average"
> > > > > coaches in a certain price range - what I
> considered "market
> > > price".
> > > > > Then there were the occasional "refurbished" coaches
where
> > folks
> > > > > wanted twenty grand above "market price". I wasn't going
to
> > pay
> > > > that.
> > > > > In fact, I wasn't going to pay "market price" for a coach
> > with
> > > a lot
> > > > > of problems, either.
> > > > >
> > > > > As a buyer, here's how it worked for me: A good coach
with
> > > nothing
> > > > > wrong commands full market value, perhaps slightly more.
In
> > my
> > > > range I
> > > > > identified mid eighties PT-40s and the market value I
came
> to
> > > was
> > > > > about $50,000. Now, I wasn't going to pay full market
value
> > for
> > > a
> > > > > coach with a lot of issues. Something that needed major
> work
> > I
> > > might
> > > > > have paid $35k for, but sellers still thought they could
> get
> > > $50k.
> > > > On
> > > > > the flip side, many "perfect" coaches, folks were wanting
> > $80k.
> > > > >
> > > > > When all was said and done I did find a very good coach
> with
> > > almost
> > > > no
> > > > > problems (few things here and there, but they all have
> those)
> > > right
> > > > > near what I considered to be fair market value. This
tells
> me
> > > that
> > > > > those wanting $80k for their similar coaches are high, as
> are
> > > those
> > > > > wanting $50k for something that needs $20k worth of work
to
> > > make it
> > > > > half as nice as mine.
> > > > >
> > > > > So, there's my two cents worth.
> > > > >
> > > > > -Ryan
> > > > > '86 PT-40 8V92
> > > > > Tri-Cities, WA
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > > >
> > >
> > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > >
> >
>