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12-09-2006, 13:24

Doug now we are getting someplace where we can form a concensus on
this issue. You have clarified the issue perfectly and I agree. In
my opinion you have hit one of the nails exactly on the head....
COMPUTERS! I have a friend that has a large diesel repair shop. He
has over 25 years experience most of it as the head mechanic in a
large and respectable repair shop that finally closed when the owner
retired. He has told me that his nightmares are caused by diesel
trucks coming in with computerized engines and transmissions many of
which are not maintained by fully trained mechanics. Partial fixes
just to get them down the road sometimes! While his mechanics are
experts in fixing almost anything....they tremble when the problems
are not caused by the obvious issues and the computers become suspect.

And we agree again about eating the parts etc when you cant fix the
problem. Several excellent shops in my area that do exactly that.
They dont want to word to ever get out that they charged the customer
for NOT fixing the problem. Sounds like you have a lot of pride in
your workmanship and shop Doug and I applaud you.

When I wrote down the requirements to be satisfied for my pusher
Bluebird at the top of the list was NO computers for either the
engine or transmission. I realize that there are forum members that
have different requirements but for me that was an absolute. Not
because I didnt understand or could work on them, but because I
wanted something simple to repair. I believe this exact problem that
Julie had and attempted to get repaired three times justifies my
decision for me.

Doug I dont know how large your shop is but I would almost bet you
are having some of the same problems friends of mine in your business
are having. The expense of buying, maintaining and calibrating the
test equipment necessary to troubleshoot and repair these
computerized cars. And then of course you have to teach the mechanics
that work for you how to successfully use it. And of course the
customer has no idea how much overhead you have before you earn one
single dime for yourself. Glad I am retired

Hope Julie finds the problem so it can be documented and hopefully
help the next person that has this problem.

tom warner
vernon center,ny
1985 PT 40

. At 09:39 AM 12/9/2006, you wrote:
>Tom,
> I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. I agree that if
> someone presents themselves as an expert, then they should be able
> to fix a problem. If they can't then perhaps they should revise
> their description of the service they offer. However, repair these
> days (and possibly has been forever) is unfortunately often not an
> exact science, especially with computers. How can we not expect to
> pay a service facility for their time if a problem continues to be elusive?
> I struggle with these same issues at my shop. If a problem is
> puzzling, I tell the customer. If I only "think" I have the problem
> solved, I tell the customer to drive the car and get back to me, if
> it's fixed, we'll settle up, if not, I'll try some more or try to
> find someone who can fix it. I personally get very frustrated when
> I can't fix a problem, not only for myself, but more so for my
> customer. Beleive me, I eat my share of parts and labor because my
> conscience won't allow me to charge for a missed diagnosis.
> My statments are made with the assumption that the shops
> honestly "thought" they had fixed the peoblem...maybe if they had
> another chance to work on the rig they could have, but Julie had to
> be on her way, a difficult situation for both vehicle owner and
> repair facility.
> So enough of this for me, back to the real issue. I too am very
> skeptical about this whole thing being caused by a bad air filter.
> Maybe...but doubtful to me. I think when it gets fixed, we will
> find there were other players. Just this week I had an Audi with a
> engine cut out situation that seemed like a fuel pump issue, but it
> turned out to be a cracked vaccum line going to the turbo waste
> gate. This caused the turbo to go into overboost and the computer
> ws shutting off the fuel pump. No computer fault codes were
> present. It can be a real challenge...
>
>Tom Warner wrote:
> Doug sounds like we have a disagreement here and in my
> opinion one of
>the reasons we have a few bad service areas that can get away with
>poor service. And notice that I said a few. I dont understand your
>rationale Doug when you say "time was spent, labor was done, the
>problem was not fixed", then what are you paying them for? I am
>going to pay $90-$110 an hour for expert services to NOT fix a
>problem now? Dont think so.
>I stick by my previous statement, if you cant do the work get out of
>the business. If they advertise diesel and allison transmission
>service then they should have the equipment, skills and parts to fix them.
>
>tom warner
>vernon center,ny
>1985 PT 40
>
>At 10:09 PM 12/8/2006, you wrote:
> >FWIW, Speaking as a repair shop owner, time was spent, labor was
> >done, the problem was not fixed. I feel that the previous shops are
> >due something for their time. Maybe some refund is due, maybe not, I
> >don't know what they charged. It sounds like the problem is not a
> >simple one, so missed diagnosis is not hard to understand. I feel
> >for Julie, the frustration of being stuck, spending money and not
> >getting the results you expected and spending more money is no fun
> >to say the least, but we cannot expect these complicated machines to
> >always be easy to fix. More often than not, I find elusive problems
> >to be multi-faceted, and while the actual repair may be easy and
> >quick, finding the problem may be difficult and time consuming.
> >Certianly we can't expect service facilities to only get paid for
> >the problems they fix, and not for the time it takes to diagnose the
> >problem? At least the most recent shop knows what has been tried and
> >didn't work, that alone is worth something.
> > I've been to my doctor 3 times with an aching elbow and it
> > still aches, but I have to keep paying for him to look at it.
> > I just hope they get it figured out and Julie and crew can get
> > on with their travels.
> > Doug Engel, Gunnison, CO, 1981 FC35SB, "Pokey"
> >
> >ac7880 wrote:
> > Tom,
> >
> >Perhaps you are jumping the starter gun? How can they demand a 100%
> >refund from previous shops until the problem is actually proven to be
> >solved with a simple new air filter replacement?
> >
> >What if they demand refunds, and the last shop's fix is not the final
> >solution?
> >
> >Do they then refund the refund?
> >
> >Let them get a fix that proves out in the long haul before pointing
> >fingers at previous shops and demanding money back. Maybe the 3rd
> >shops diagnosis is correct--or maybe not. 3 opinions thus far -
> >which one is right? The one that solves the problem over the next
> >30 days and multiple miles is likely the right one.
> >
> >As for me, I would never "immediately contact both shops
> >for a 100% refund", until it was proven beyond a boubt they were both
> >wrong - and even then I would cut slack for the hours they expended
> >in good faith to help me solve the problem when I needed help.
> >
> >Dan
> >94 BMC 37'
> >
> >--- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, Tom Warner
> >wrote:
> > >
> > > Julie if I were in your place I would immediately contact both
> >shops
> > > for a 100% refund once you get the bill. If you have the number off
> > > the old filter go to this site and plug it in with no
> > > dashes. http://www.wixfilters.com/filterlookup/index.asp then go
> > > to http://www.filter1.com and get the phone number and the chances are
> >they
> > > will have one in stock.
> > >
> > > tom warner
> > > vernon center,ny
> > > 1985 PT 40
> > >
> > >
> > > At 10:44 PM 12/7/2006, you wrote:
> > > >We arrived in front of Stewart and Stevenson at 10 p.m. last night.
> > > >They said they would take a preliminary look today. From our
> > > >description of the problem and what work had been done they thought
> > > >that the issue was on the engine side of the equation. What they
> > > >found was the air filter was full. Now they are trying to locate a
> > > >filter to fit. They have phoned Bluebird but did not get an answer
> > > >today. He hoped for a call back tomorrow.
> > > >
> > > >After they put in the air filter they will test the system to see
> >if
> > > >the problem is resolved. Now it really is aggravating to have to
> >pay
> > > >3 shops to troubleshoot a problem when the first shop should have
> > > >found the problem. United Engines in Oklahoma City told us that we
> > > >had about 50% left on our air filter. They were wrong and
> > > >consequently we had a transmission shop try to find the problem. I
> > > >guess it is a good thing to have all our ground connections made
> > > >secure but it was not the cause.
> > > >
> > > >So does Bluebird work on Friday. Does anyone know what air filter
> >the
> > > >1992 WLWB 40' PT 8V92 uses?
> > > >If S & S can obtain a filter we could possibly be on our way to our
> > > >winter abode.
> > > >
> > > > Thanks for all the advice and support. The camaraderie of these
> > > >lists is truly wonderful.
> > > >
> > > >Julie Bonser
> > > >1992 WLWB PT 40'
> > > >El Paso, TX
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >Yahoo! Groups Links
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >Doug Engel, Gunnison, CO. 1981 FC35SB "Pokey"
> >
> >---------------------------------
> >Access over 1 million songs - Yahoo! Music Unlimited.
> >
> >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
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>
>Doug Engel, Gunnison, CO. 1981 FC35SB "Pokey"
>
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