Fullriver Sealed Battery

[one_dusty_hoot]

Holy Toledo Brittles!, did you write the book on AGM's?
Ok, what's your take on this as appled to AGM batteries?

My coach has 6-6V. deep cycle batteries wired in a series
parallel combination for a nominal 12 VDC. According to
what I have read, I understand that the coach and starting
batteries should be independant of one another in that the
starting battery requires high current for a short period
while the house batteries require low current for a long
period. Mine are all together doing both functions.

Will the AGM stand up to what the generic, buy at Sams,
golf cart look alike will preform?

I understand that ALL batteries are good for "X" number of
charge cycles, that's it, so the bottom line is performance
and performace is how much you receive for how much you spend.

Are the AGM's competetive against the $60 Sams in the above
dual application?
TIA
Bob Janes, Greenville, SC





--- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, "Stephen Birtles"
wrote:
>
> What is AGM, and what makes AGM technology better
>
> Absorbed Glass Mat batteries are constructed differently than the
> traditional flooded battery. This write up covers mainly the
Concorde
> AGM's, but also applies to most other brands of deep cycle AGM
batteries.
>
> In AGM batteries (also called starved electrolyte), there is a thin
> ultra-fine fiberglass mat sandwiched between the plates that are
> saturated to about 95% of what they can hold. This mat is then
packed
> in between the plates and slightly compressed, then welded/soldered
in
> place. Because the plates and mats are packed fairly tight, they are
> almost immune to vibration.
>
> AGM (Absorbed Glass Mat) sealed battery technology was originally
> invented in 1980, and developed and introduced in 1985 for military
> aircraft where power, weight, safety, and reliability were paramount
> considerations. The Concorde is a VRSLAB (Valve Regulated Sealed
> Lead-Acid Battery). Sometimes referred to as VRLA (Valve Regulated
> Lead-Acid). Several manufacturers now produce AGM batteries, but
> Concorde was the first to develop the technology for commercial
> quantities.
>
> An important thing about AGM - Just because a battery is AGM does
NOT
> make it a deep cycle battery. Several companies, such as Optima,
have
> adopted AGM for starting batteries and other non-deep cycle
> applications. Those still have the advantages of AGM, but are not
deep
> cycle.
>
> Cutaway of Concorde AGM Deep Cycle BatteryThe Sun Extender batteries
> are essentially the same construction as the Concorde Lifeline,
> Chairman, and other Concorde AGM batteries. The major difference is
> that the Sun-Extender batteries have bolt-on terminals instead of
the
> common post type. We feel that bolt on terminals give a much more
> reliable connection. We also stock most. Chairman batteries and some
> LifeLine batteries.
>
> Efficiency:
>
> This comparison is important, and is critical for high charge or
> discharge rate applications. Internal resistance of a battery
denotes
> its overall charge/discharge efficiency, its ability to deliver high
> currents without significant drops in voltage, and is a measure of
> the quality of the components and construction.
>
> Internal resistance in NiCad and NiFe batteries is approximately
40%,
> i.e., you need to charge them to 140% of its rated capacity to have
it
> fully charged. For standard flooded Lead-Acid batteries, internal
> resistance is usually around 10% to 15% for a new battery, and can
be
> as high as 25%+ for older batteries. Internal resistance
>
> which is the charging current lost to gassing, or breaking up of
> water. Gel acid batteries are better at approximately 16% internal
> resistance and require only roughly 116% of rated capacity to be
fully
> charged. Concorde Advanced AGM has the lowest internal resistance of
> any battery manufactured - only 2 percent. In solar electric
systems,
> this is the same as getting an extra 10 to 15% our of your panels.
> This allows Concorde batteries to be charged much faster if needed
and
> also to deliver higher power when required. Owners using high output
> alternators, operating inverter banks, or relying on solar panels
can
> benefit significantly when using Concorde Advanced AGM batteries
with
> their equipment. Concorde AGM's are more efficient.
>
> Heat: Better efficiency also means much less heat is developed in
the
> batteries - any current that does not actually go to charging a
> battery turns into heat. That is why some batteries, especially
older
> flooded batteries (and even some non-deep cycle AGM), can get very
> warm or even hot. In extreme cases you can get " thermal runaway",
> which can be dangerous.
> Concorde batteries far exceed the US Coast Guard test for thermal
> runaway: These MW-SPEC (Military Specification) tests involve fully
> charging a battery, heating it to over 130 degrees (Potential
Thermal
> Runaway Conditions) and then overcharging the battery to simulate a
> shorted cell. (16V for a 12V battery).
>
> Concorde AGM batteries are NOT a gelled electrolyte. It is
considered
> a "Recombinant Gas Absorbed Electrolyte" battery. This cuts water
loss
> by up to 98%. Loss of charge due to self-discharge is 3 to 10 times
> better than with conventional gelled, and 5 to 50 times less than
with
> flooded batteries. The gasses recombine almost 100% within the
> battery, reducing Hydrogen emissions to a level far below most
battery
> types, and less than half the lower explosive limit for Hydrogen. In
> addition, they do not have the charge and discharge current
> limitations that most gelled batteries have.
>
> Concorde AGM battery technology has continued to develop and offer
> improvements over other sealed battery technologies. AGM technology
> has become the next step in the evolution of both starting and deep
> cycle sealed batteries for marine, RV, and aviation applications.
> These are the same type of batteries that the Navy and Air Force
used
> in Desert Storm in their F-18 and F118B "stealth", and in the Marine
> Corps "HumVees".. This "next generation" technology delivers
increased
> safety, performance, and service life over all other existing sealed
> battery types, including gel technology. All Concorde AGM batteries
> carry a one-year full warranty - most gelled cells carry only a 90-
day
> warranty.
>
> All AGM batteries, such as Concorde, have much better resistance to
> vibration and shock due to their construction than most flooded
> batteries. The plates are packed in with the glass mat, reducing
plate
> movement and vibration to nearly zero. In addition, because the
glass
> mats are not totally saturated and the liquid does not expand to
cause
> plate and case damage, AGM batteries can withstand freezing.
>
> Concorde AGM batteries meet MIL-SPEC B8565J and FAR 23.1353,
> 25.1353©, 27.1353, 29.1353(3), 25.853(a). All Concorde AGM
batteries
> are shippable without restriction by any means of transportation,
> including air. Hazardous labeling is not required.
>
> In AGM sealed batteries, the acid is absorbed between the plates and
> immobilized by a very fine fiberglass mat. No silica gel, as is used
> in gelled, is necessary. This glass mat absorbs and immobilizes the
> acid while still keeping the acid available to the plates. This
allows
> a fast reaction between acid and plate material. Even if the battery
> is broken, no electrolyte will be spilled.
>
> The AGM battery has an extremely low internal electrical resistance.
> This, combined with faster acid migration, allows the AGM batteries
to
> deliver and absorb higher rates of amperage than any other sealed
> batteries during discharging and charging. In addition, AGM
technology
> batteries can be charged at normal flooded lead-acid regulated
> charging voltages, therefore, it is not necessary to recalibrate
> charging systems or purchase special chargers. Concorde AGM
batteries
> can be bulk charged at high rates without damage - up to 10 times as
> fast as most gelled cells, and 4 times as fast as flooded batteries.
>
> Where you cannot have fumes or hydrogen, such as in poorly
ventilated
> areas.
>
> Where resistance to shock and vibration is important.
>
> Where spilled acid from leaking, tipped, or broken batteries cannot
be
> tolerated.
>
> When installed in a location where maintenance would be difficult or
> expensive, such as remote communications sites.
>
> Anyplace where you need a reliable totally sealed battery for safety
> or environmental reasons - wheelchairs, medical standby power,
inside
> RV's, computer room UPS systems, or in enclosed spaces in boats.
>
> Stephen 77fc35
>
>
>
>
>
> --- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, Tom Warner
wrote:
> >
> > No one questions whether AGM batteries are good or not. but most
> > coach owners dont use them often enough to justify buying them
when
> > flooded deep cycles work fine for our use. I only had 4
interstate
> > deep cycles in my FC35 and never ran out of power even using the
> > satellite system, LP furnaces and microwave etc, Still plenty of
> > power to start the engine the next day. At $58 each, for me its
> > difficult to justify buying AGM batteries. Whats the advantage?
There
> > is still the problem of being very careful in over charging them.
> >
> > I just replaced 6 brand new Optima batteries that were installed
in
> > my PT when I bought it ( $180 each here in advance auto) with new
> > interstate deep cycles. they are easy to maintain in a PT (a
little
> > harder in a FC) and provide plenty of power for my use.
> >
> > tom warner
> > vernon center,ny
> > 1985 PT 40
> >
> > At 11:37 PM 11/28/2006, you wrote:
> > >That link was last updated in 2002 I would tend to think that a
few
> > >things have changed since then ie chargers, battery construction
> > >AGM Batteries are a viable alternative to interstate flooded cell
> > >batteries including who produced them Interstae is a marketing
company
> > >that jobs batteries out to different manufacturers and sells
thenm
> > >under the interstate label
> > >Stephen 77fc35
> > >
> > >
> > >--- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, Tom Warner
wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Curt before you decide on what batteries you get you might
want to
> > > > read the poop sheets especially this
> > > > one. http://www.phrannie.org/battery.html Unless you have an
> > > > excellent charging system that does not exceed 14.1 volts you
may
> > > > have problems with AGM batteries.
> > > >
> > > > When I bought my PT 40 there were 7 new Optima batteries in
it, 6
> > > > where the starting/house batteries were and one for the
generator.
> > > > They were terrible for my aplication and are now sitting on my
> garage
> > > > floor and new Interstate deep cycles in place of the 6. I
still kept
> > > > the Optima in the generator compartment.
> > > >
> > > > I get Interstate deep cycle 6 VDC golf cart batteries for $58
each ,
> > > > they work fine.
> > > >
> > > > tom warner
> > > > vernon center,ny
> > > > 1985 PT 40
> > > >
> > > > At 03:59 PM 11/28/2006, you wrote:
> > > > >Anyone have experience with the Fullriver FR-GC2 batteries?
> > > > >
> > > > >You can review the Fullriver Battery line at
> > > > >http://www.dcbattery.com/fullriver.html
> > > > >
> > > > >I got this quote from dcbattery...$982.33 for 6 batteries,
> total which
> > > > >includes delivery costs to your address if paid via Paypal.
> > > > >
> > > > >An additional discount is offered if prepaid via check.
$953.72
> total
> > > > >which includes delivery costs to your address.
> > > > >
> > > > >--
> > > > >Curt Sprenger
> > > > >1987 PT38 8V92 "MacAttack Racing"
> > > > >Anaheim Hills, Calif.
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >Yahoo! Groups Links
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
>

[Bob & Carol Howald`]

Hi Randy: Just checking, I know some of these coach's are wired
different or have been altered. You stated that the three carquest
batteries start coach and generator on your 93. On my 93 the three
coach batteries will only start the engine, the 8 or ? batteries for
the house also start the generator. however as you stated they can be
cross-tied together for starts. I think it's good priority thinking
on behalf of the engineer's, when all else fail's you should be able
to at least start the coach engine and leave. Small point but am
curious how your's is wired....Thanks.Bob 93pt-40Illinois..Expecting
1" of ICE and 5"snow.........






, randymerri@... wrote:
>
> Hi Everyone,
>
> I have considered AGM batteries for my coach, but haven't gone that
route
> yet. I use AC Delco deep cycles purchased at Sam's Club. They run
about $65.00
> each and have a 12 month warranty. I had one go bad and Sam's
replaced it. (Be
> sure to keep receipt). I have 3 Carquest batteries for the coach
and
> generator. They are 4 years old and I haven't had any problem with
them.
>
>
> Randy Merrill
> 1993 40' WLWB
> Ocala, FL
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

[Pete Masterson]

If the AGM installation was exactly the same in power and weight as
the Sam's golf cart battery (SGCB), then the higher cost might not
result in enough benefit to be "worth it." However, all aspects
aren't _exactly_ equal. Similar size AGMs will have more amp-hour
potential than the SGCB so you're getting more power for some of the
extra money. AGMs also have the potential, if well cared for, to give
somewhat longer service life. Finally, the reduced maintenance
requirement for AGM must be factored in. Personally, I very much
appreciate that I only have to check the display on my Link 2000R
controller (that the previous owner so generously installed) and not
have to fuss with watering batteries or worrying about the charger
boiling them and ruining them. I also appreciate the relatively quick
recharge cycle -- it means running the generator for a shorter time
when not attached to a power source.

When the time comes for me to replace the AGMs in my coach, I'll
certainly consider SGCB vs. AGM and make my decision based on the
convenience and my perception of value for the investment at the
time. And, that's about the same equation you'll need to calculate
for yourself. If you're frequently off the grid, then you might
appreciate the extra amp-hour potential of AGMs but if you are mostly
connected to shore power, then (assuming good charger management and
a semi-automated watering system) the SGCB or some other flood-type
battery may be completely suitable. Please understand that what's
right for one isn't necessarily the best choice for another. Much
depends on your fastidiousness with checking the condition of the
batteries (if not "maintenance free"), with your charger (a 3-stage
charger is preferred), and with your off-grid needs.

I note that the previous owner installed 6-6 volt deep cycle AGMs for
the house (wired to generate 12 v) and 3-12 volt (wired parallel)
AGMs for the engine. These are all Deka brand and, if you want, I can
get the model numbers for you -- but you may need a different model
to fit your 'bird.

Pete Masterson
aeonix1@...
'95 Blue Bird Wanderlodge WBDA 42'
El Sobrante, CA




On Nov 29, 2006, at 12:42 PM, one_dusty_hoot wrote:

> Holy Toledo Brittles!, did you write the book on AGM's?
> Ok, what's your take on this as appled to AGM batteries?
>
> My coach has 6-6V. deep cycle batteries wired in a series
> parallel combination for a nominal 12 VDC. According to
> what I have read, I understand that the coach and starting
> batteries should be independant of one another in that the
> starting battery requires high current for a short period
> while the house batteries require low current for a long
> period. Mine are all together doing both functions.
>
> Will the AGM stand up to what the generic, buy at Sams,
> golf cart look alike will preform?
>
> I understand that ALL batteries are good for "X" number of
> charge cycles, that's it, so the bottom line is performance
> and performace is how much you receive for how much you spend.
>
> Are the AGM's competetive against the $60 Sams in the above
> dual application?
> TIA
> Bob Janes, Greenville, SC
>
> <snip>



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Stephen Birtles]

ithink your questions were answered by the way I did not write that
essay I borrowed it to use as an example but Pete answered the
questions I have not seen one brand of AGM that is essentially
Different from another save the terminal connections. Optima would be
an exeception the cells are round instead of rectangular or square but
in this there is a resulting loss of bulk (no corners to fill in with
stuff)equates to less capacity. I feel what the agm lacks in pricing
it makes up in capacity fast charging,lower maintenance and longevity
One thing is sure I won't be selling any single point battery watering
systems to AGM Owners

Stephen 77fc35 still running my 7 year old soon to be 8 year old fcb's
with a single point system



--- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, Pete Masterson
wrote:
>
> If the AGM installation was exactly the same in power and weight as
> the Sam's golf cart battery (SGCB), then the higher cost might not
> result in enough benefit to be "worth it." However, all aspects
> aren't _exactly_ equal. Similar size AGMs will have more amp-hour
> potential than the SGCB so you're getting more power for some of the
> extra money. AGMs also have the potential, if well cared for, to give
> somewhat longer service life. Finally, the reduced maintenance
> requirement for AGM must be factored in. Personally, I very much
> appreciate that I only have to check the display on my Link 2000R
> controller (that the previous owner so generously installed) and not
> have to fuss with watering batteries or worrying about the charger
> boiling them and ruining them. I also appreciate the relatively quick
> recharge cycle -- it means running the generator for a shorter time
> when not attached to a power source.
>
> When the time comes for me to replace the AGMs in my coach, I'll
> certainly consider SGCB vs. AGM and make my decision based on the
> convenience and my perception of value for the investment at the
> time. And, that's about the same equation you'll need to calculate
> for yourself. If you're frequently off the grid, then you might
> appreciate the extra amp-hour potential of AGMs but if you are mostly
> connected to shore power, then (assuming good charger management and
> a semi-automated watering system) the SGCB or some other flood-type
> battery may be completely suitable. Please understand that what's
> right for one isn't necessarily the best choice for another. Much
> depends on your fastidiousness with checking the condition of the
> batteries (if not "maintenance free"), with your charger (a 3-stage
> charger is preferred), and with your off-grid needs.
>
> I note that the previous owner installed 6-6 volt deep cycle AGMs for
> the house (wired to generate 12 v) and 3-12 volt (wired parallel)
> AGMs for the engine. These are all Deka brand and, if you want, I can
> get the model numbers for you -- but you may need a different model
> to fit your 'bird.
>
> Pete Masterson
> aeonix1@...
> '95 Blue Bird Wanderlodge WBDA 42'
> El Sobrante, CA
>
>
>
>
> On Nov 29, 2006, at 12:42 PM, one_dusty_hoot wrote:
>
> > Holy Toledo Brittles!, did you write the book on AGM's?
> > Ok, what's your take on this as appled to AGM batteries?
> >
> > My coach has 6-6V. deep cycle batteries wired in a series
> > parallel combination for a nominal 12 VDC. According to
> > what I have read, I understand that the coach and starting
> > batteries should be independant of one another in that the
> > starting battery requires high current for a short period
> > while the house batteries require low current for a long
> > period. Mine are all together doing both functions.
> >
> > Will the AGM stand up to what the generic, buy at Sams,
> > golf cart look alike will preform?
> >
> > I understand that ALL batteries are good for "X" number of
> > charge cycles, that's it, so the bottom line is performance
> > and performace is how much you receive for how much you spend.
> >
> > Are the AGM's competetive against the $60 Sams in the above
> > dual application?
> > TIA
> > Bob Janes, Greenville, SC
> >
> > <snip>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

[putneyflash@...>]

Tom: do you see any advantage in putting two 6 volt golf battries in the
generator comparment? I was think these may be enought to fire the 3208 in our
mild weather in south Ga. should the main battries be dead. What do you think?

Thanks for all your contributions

re brake 1983 FC-35 "sagecoach"
>
> From: Tom Warner
> Date: 2006/11/29 Wed AM 12:00:35 EST
> To: WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [WanderlodgeForum] Re: Fullriver Sealed Battery
>
> No one questions whether AGM batteries are good or not. but most
> coach owners dont use them often enough to justify buying them when
> flooded deep cycles work fine for our use. I only had 4 interstate
> deep cycles in my FC35 and never ran out of power even using the
> satellite system, LP furnaces and microwave etc, Still plenty of
> power to start the engine the next day. At $58 each, for me its
> difficult to justify buying AGM batteries. Whats the advantage? There
> is still the problem of being very careful in over charging them.
>
> I just replaced 6 brand new Optima batteries that were installed in
> my PT when I bought it ( $180 each here in advance auto) with new
> interstate deep cycles. they are easy to maintain in a PT (a little
> harder in a FC) and provide plenty of power for my use.
>
> tom warner
> vernon center,ny
> 1985 PT 40
>
> At 11:37 PM 11/28/2006, you wrote:
> >That link was last updated in 2002 I would tend to think that a few
> >things have changed since then ie chargers, battery construction
> >AGM Batteries are a viable alternative to interstate flooded cell
> >batteries including who produced them Interstae is a marketing company
> >that jobs batteries out to different manufacturers and sells thenm
> >under the interstate label
> >Stephen 77fc35
> >
> >
> >--- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, Tom Warner wrote:
> > >
> > > Curt before you decide on what batteries you get you might want to
> > > read the poop sheets especially this
> > > one. http://www.phrannie.org/battery.html Unless you have an
> > > excellent charging system that does not exceed 14.1 volts you may
> > > have problems with AGM batteries.
> > >
> > > When I bought my PT 40 there were 7 new Optima batteries in it, 6
> > > where the starting/house batteries were and one for the generator.
> > > They were terrible for my aplication and are now sitting on my garage
> > > floor and new Interstate deep cycles in place of the 6. I still kept
> > > the Optima in the generator compartment.
> > >
> > > I get Interstate deep cycle 6 VDC golf cart batteries for $58 each ,
> > > they work fine.
> > >
> > > tom warner
> > > vernon center,ny
> > > 1985 PT 40
> > >
> > > At 03:59 PM 11/28/2006, you wrote:
> > > >Anyone have experience with the Fullriver FR-GC2 batteries?
> > > >
> > > >You can review the Fullriver Battery line at
> > > >http://www.dcbattery.com/fullriver.html
> > > >
> > > >I got this quote from dcbattery...$982.33 for 6 batteries, total which
> > > >includes delivery costs to your address if paid via Paypal.
> > > >
> > > >An additional discount is offered if prepaid via check. $953.72 total
> > > >which includes delivery costs to your address.
> > > >
> > > >--
> > > >Curt Sprenger
> > > >1987 PT38 8V92 "MacAttack Racing"
> > > >Anaheim Hills, Calif.
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>