Radiator temp in/out and temp gauge readings
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07-20-2005, 03:43
Post: #11
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Radiator temp in/out and temp gauge readings
George,
1. First of all, the post you are referring to was about a different bus, on my RTS, with a different problem. It turned out that deep within the radiator fins there was crud and buildup on over half the radiator, thus making cooling difficult. This current problem is with a Bluebird. 2. It was just over a week ago when I addressed this problem, not three, and it's a long term project so I'm in no rush. I'm in the process of learning as much as I can about the Bluebird bus line, so forgive me if I ask a lot of questions. 3. Your advice was to replace the thermostats. I had 3 members from this board and 3 others from another board tell me to get the infrared gun to help diagnosis, so I did. 4. I don't recall argueing with anyone on this board about any of their advice. I appreciate everyone's input and gain as much I can from what they state. Your's was helpful also and gave me something to think about. 5. I wanted to get a tool that I could use in the future as well as now. I'm sure all the folks that told me to get it don't think of it as a "toy", but as a valuable tool to diagnose problems instead of just throwing parts at an engine. 6. I was just curious if you could diagnose a bad thermostat without having to loosen the hoses, lose antifreeze, test and replace the part and gasket, bleed the system if needed, and dispose of old antifreeze. I'm a big fan of making a quick diagnosis if possible. And from what I can tell, this gun will be able to help do that. So in the time it would take for me do all that, the toy would have paid for itself. If you wish to offer any advice please do. But I hate screwing around as much as anyone would. That's why I followed the majority's advice. And I'm taking it that there is NO possible way that you think a bad thermostat can be diagnosed without taking it out. I won't argue with you since you have the experience. Thanks again for your input. Steve 2 '98 QBRE Bluebird --- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, "mrdonut12" <mrdonut12@y...> wrote: > > Steve, > Forgive me if I'm a little short with you, but I'm a professional > mechanic with over 30 years experience, ASE Certified Master > Technician, Advanced L-1 Engine Performance Certification, > Service Advisor Certification and I own one of the best auto repair > shops in the US. In 10 years in business, my shop has fixed over > 34,000 cars. > I told you 3 weeks ago, the first step in fixing this thing is > to install new factory thermostats. You have to establish baselines > of performance in a system in order to fix it. No other part of the > cooling system can be properly evaluated with malfunctioning > thermostats in place. > Thermostats get old, they wear out and they break. > You asked my advice, I gave it to you, you argued with me and > went out and bought a new toy that costs about 7 times what a > thermostat would cost and now you want me to answer more questions. > My question to you is, do you want to screw around or do you want > to fix this thing? > > George Witt > 81 FC 35 > Lincoln, Nebraska > > --- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, "transit360" > > > Tom and George, > > > > OK, sorry guys. I forgot to mention I also shot a temp reading on > > the hose going in and out of the water pump, both at around 200 > > degrees also. > > To be honest with you, I'm not sure where my thermostat is. I'm > > assuming it's in a usual spot near the water pump, but I've never > > worked on the 8.3 Cummins before, and I've been trying to find a > > manual for a month. But it should be a no-brainer. > > So I'm gathering that we're suspecting improper coolant flow, > > which could be caused by a stuck thermostat or possibly a weak water > > pump? I'm assuming when I locate the thermostat that I should be > > able to shoot it at operating temp and the temp should be the same > > on both sides, otherwise a temp difference would indicate it's > > closed, yes? Sounds feasible. > > However, this is pretty much how this bus has always run, > > around 200 degrees on the highway. Wouldn't it overheat if the > > thermostat stayed closed? Could it be partially open or closed? That > > would restrict flow but maybe not enough to totally overheat the > > engine? > > > > Thanks, > > Steve > > 2 '98 Bluebird QBRE Partybuses > > > > --- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, Tom Warner > > wrote: > > > George what he established is that the radiator is not exhanging > > heat. > > > There should be only about a 10-15 degree difference between the > > temp at > > > the top and bottom. If not the coolant is not flowing more then > > likely > > > because the thermostat is not open. > > > > > > tom > > > 1982 FC35 > > > Vernon Center,Ny > > > > > > At 02:15 AM 7/20/2005 +0000, you wrote: > > > >Steve, > > > > You've established that the radiator, at the current flow > > > >rate, is capable of exchanging heat. > > > > What you haven't established is if there's any water flow. > > > >With that deep a drop in temperature, does that tell you that > > maybe > > > >the coolant is flowing too slowly? > > > > Use your Raytek infrared temp gun to tell you if the > > thermostat > > > >is working properly. > > > > > > > > George Witt > > > > 81 FC 35 > > > > Lincoln, Nebraska > > > > > > > > > > > >--- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, "transit360" > > > > > > > > > I just got my new Raytek infrared temp gun and was getting > > some > > > > > shots on my 8.3 Cummins pusher in my '98 QBRE Partybus. I shot > > the > > > > > top of the radiator and it read 200 degrees, which is what my > > bus > > > > > temp gauge said. I shot the lower radiator hose and it read 130 > > > > > degrees. > > > > > I made sure to test location and reposition my gun several > > > > > times, and this is what I got. Should there be such a drastic > > change > > > > > in temp through the radiator? I was expecting about 15-20 > > degrees > > > > > difference. Could this indicate any problems? > > > > > > > > > > Second question: My temp gauge on the dash has green (safe) > > > > > markings up to 220 degrees. Past 220, it reads in the red. My > > bird > > > > > typically runs at 200 degrees while riding. Is this normal? > > Seems a > > > > > little on the warm side but this is my first Cummins as I have > > dealt > > > > > primarily with 8.2 and 6V71 Detroits in the past. My other > > Bluebird > > > > > partybus (same exact bus) runs at about 190, although I haven't > > > > > confirmed it with the temp gun like the first. > > > > > > > > > > Thanks, > > > > > Steve > > > > > 2 '98 Bluebird QBRE Partybuses > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >---------- > > > >YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS > > > > > > > > * Visit your group > > > > > > "<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/WanderlodgeForum>WanderlodgeForum" > > on the web. > > > > * > > > > * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > > > > * > > > > > > > > > > > > * > > > > * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the > > > > <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>Yahoo! Terms of Service. > > > > > > > > > > > >---------- |
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07-20-2005, 05:32
Post: #12
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Radiator temp in/out and temp gauge readings
--- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, "transit360"
> George, > > > And I'm taking it that there is NO possible way that you think a > bad thermostat can be diagnosed without taking it out. I won't argue > with you since you have the experience. Thanks again for your input. You're welcome and thanks for the nice response. :o) There are several thermostat tests. The first and easiest is to start the engine completely cold, run it a few minutes and feel the top of the radiator. If it gets warm at all within a few minutes, the thermostat isn't closing completely. This is the first sign of a weak thermostat, it doesn't seal up cold. This doesn't require a Raytek. The next test does require a Raytek. The output temp of the upper radiator hose should stay fairly level until the thermostat opens, at which time the temp should just shoot up suddenly to the 170 degree or more area. This indicates the thermostat has opened. The temp may toggle up and down slightly as the thermostat cycles. Those are the thermostat tests. The real reason I suggested replacement of the thermostat is it really is a wearout item and it's job is critical to keep the engine temperature constant. A 10 degree deviation has a lot of effect on the efficiency of the engine and the longevity of it. I replace mine every 3 years as a maintenance item. The first thing I did after I bought my Bird was to replace the thermostats in both the engine and the generator. Both were found to be worn out on physical examination. Just because it passes those tests doesn't mean it will be reliable in the future. Hope this helps. George Witt 81 FC 35 Lincoln, Nebraska > > Steve > 2 '98 QBRE Bluebird > > > > --- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, "mrdonut12" > <mrdonut12@y...> wrote: > > > > Steve, > > Forgive me if I'm a little short with you, but I'm a > professional > > mechanic with over 30 years experience, ASE Certified Master > > Technician, Advanced L-1 Engine Performance Certification, > > Service Advisor Certification and I own one of the best auto repair > > shops in the US. In 10 years in business, my shop has fixed over > > 34,000 cars. > > I told you 3 weeks ago, the first step in fixing this thing > is > > to install new factory thermostats. You have to establish > baselines > > of performance in a system in order to fix it. No other part of > the > > cooling system can be properly evaluated with malfunctioning > > thermostats in place. > > Thermostats get old, they wear out and they break. > > You asked my advice, I gave it to you, you argued with me and > > went out and bought a new toy that costs about 7 times what a > > thermostat would cost and now you want me to answer more questions. > > My question to you is, do you want to screw around or do you > want > > to fix this thing? > > > > George Witt > > 81 FC 35 > > Lincoln, Nebraska > > > > --- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, "transit360" > > > > > Tom and George, > > > > > > OK, sorry guys. I forgot to mention I also shot a temp > reading on > > > the hose going in and out of the water pump, both at around 200 > > > degrees also. > > > To be honest with you, I'm not sure where my thermostat is. > I'm > > > assuming it's in a usual spot near the water pump, but I've > never > > > worked on the 8.3 Cummins before, and I've been trying to find a > > > manual for a month. But it should be a no-brainer. > > > So I'm gathering that we're suspecting improper coolant > flow, > > > which could be caused by a stuck thermostat or possibly a weak > water > > > pump? I'm assuming when I locate the thermostat that I should be > > > able to shoot it at operating temp and the temp should be the > same > > > on both sides, otherwise a temp difference would indicate it's > > > closed, yes? Sounds feasible. > > > However, this is pretty much how this bus has always run, > > > around 200 degrees on the highway. Wouldn't it overheat if the > > > thermostat stayed closed? Could it be partially open or closed? > That > > > would restrict flow but maybe not enough to totally overheat the > > > engine? > > > > > > Thanks, > > > Steve > > > 2 '98 Bluebird QBRE Partybuses > > > > > > --- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, Tom Warner > > > > wrote: > > > > George what he established is that the radiator is not > exhanging > > > heat. > > > > There should be only about a 10-15 degree difference between > the > > > temp at > > > > the top and bottom. If not the coolant is not flowing more > then > > > likely > > > > because the thermostat is not open. > > > > > > > > tom > > > > 1982 FC35 > > > > Vernon Center,Ny > > > > > > > > At 02:15 AM 7/20/2005 +0000, you wrote: > > > > >Steve, > > > > > You've established that the radiator, at the current flow > > > > >rate, is capable of exchanging heat. > > > > > What you haven't established is if there's any water > flow. > > > > >With that deep a drop in temperature, does that tell you that > > > maybe > > > > >the coolant is flowing too slowly? > > > > > Use your Raytek infrared temp gun to tell you if the > > > thermostat > > > > >is working properly. > > > > > > > > > > George Witt > > > > > 81 FC 35 > > > > > Lincoln, Nebraska > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >--- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, "transit360" > > > > > > > > > > > I just got my new Raytek infrared temp gun and was > getting > > > some > > > > > > shots on my 8.3 Cummins pusher in my '98 QBRE Partybus. I > shot > > > the > > > > > > top of the radiator and it read 200 degrees, which is what > my > > > bus > > > > > > temp gauge said. I shot the lower radiator hose and it > read 130 > > > > > > degrees. > > > > > > I made sure to test location and reposition my gun > several > > > > > > times, and this is what I got. Should there be such a > drastic > > > change > > > > > > in temp through the radiator? I was expecting about 15-20 > > > degrees > > > > > > difference. Could this indicate any problems? > > > > > > > > > > > > Second question: My temp gauge on the dash has green > (safe) > > > > > > markings up to 220 degrees. Past 220, it reads in the red. > My > > > bird > > > > > > typically runs at 200 degrees while riding. Is this > normal? > > > Seems a > > > > > > little on the warm side but this is my first Cummins as I > have > > > dealt > > > > > > primarily with 8.2 and 6V71 Detroits in the past. My other > > > Bluebird > > > > > > partybus (same exact bus) runs at about 190, although I > haven't > > > > > > confirmed it with the temp gun like the first. > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks, > > > > > > Steve > > > > > > 2 '98 Bluebird QBRE Partybuses > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >---------- > > > > >YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS > > > > > > > > > > * Visit your group > > > > > > > > > "<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/WanderlodgeForum>WanderlodgeForum" > > > on the web. > > > > > * > > > > > * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > > > > > * > > > > > unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > > > > > * > > > > > * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the > > > > > <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>Yahoo! Terms of Service. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >---------- |
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07-20-2005, 07:15
Post: #13
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Radiator temp in/out and temp gauge readings
You obviously are not listening to all of the advice you were given. If you
have a temperature gauge on your dash then you can very easily tell if your thermostats are opening at the proper time and working correctly. WATCH the gauge that is what they put it there for. The temperature will continue to climb but should hit the thermostat temperature quickly when the engine is running and you can see as the thermostat opens since the temp will start to drop. Then the temp will stop going down again and slowly build up until the thermostat once again opens and this cycle will continue until it stabalizes. If the temp does not rise rather quickly after running the engine with the bus moving, then most likely the thermostats are not closing and are wide open. If the temp keeps climbing with out cycling off and on then the thermostat is frozen shut. If the bottom hose on the radiator is always cold, then once again the thermostat is not opening and coolant is not flowing thru the radiator. Same thing when you take the radiator cap off and watch the coolant flow thru the radiator. You can tell when the thermostat opens since you will immediately see coolant flow past the radiator neck. For all of these you dont need a toy...you need to understand how the cooling system works and how to troubleshoot it. tom 1982 FC35 Vernon Center, NY At 03:43 PM 7/20/2005 +0000, you wrote: >George, > > 1. First of all, the post you are referring to was about a >different bus, on my RTS, with a different problem. It turned out >that deep within the radiator fins there was crud and buildup on >over half the radiator, thus making cooling difficult. This current >problem is with a Bluebird. > 2. It was just over a week ago when I addressed this problem, >not three, and it's a long term project so I'm in no rush. I'm in >the process of learning as much as I can about the Bluebird bus >line, so forgive me if I ask a lot of questions. > 3. Your advice was to replace the thermostats. I had 3 members >from this board and 3 others from another board tell me to get the >infrared gun to help diagnosis, so I did. > 4. I don't recall argueing with anyone on this board about any >of their advice. I appreciate everyone's input and gain as much I >can from what they state. Your's was helpful also and gave me >something to think about. > 5. I wanted to get a tool that I could use in the future as well >as now. I'm sure all the folks that told me to get it don't think of >it as a "toy", but as a valuable tool to diagnose problems instead >of just throwing parts at an engine. > 6. I was just curious if you could diagnose a bad thermostat >without having to loosen the hoses, lose antifreeze, test and >replace the part and gasket, bleed the system if needed, and dispose >of old antifreeze. I'm a big fan of making a quick diagnosis if >possible. And from what I can tell, this gun will be able to help do >that. So in the time it would take for me do all that, the toy would >have paid for itself. > > If you wish to offer any advice please do. But I hate screwing >around as much as anyone would. That's why I followed the majority's >advice. > And I'm taking it that there is NO possible way that you think a >bad thermostat can be diagnosed without taking it out. I won't argue >with you since you have the experience. Thanks again for your input. > >Steve >2 '98 QBRE Bluebird > > > >--- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, "mrdonut12" ><mrdonut12@y...> wrote: > > > > Steve, > > Forgive me if I'm a little short with you, but I'm a >professional > > mechanic with over 30 years experience, ASE Certified Master > > Technician, Advanced L-1 Engine Performance Certification, > > Service Advisor Certification and I own one of the best auto repair > > shops in the US. In 10 years in business, my shop has fixed over > > 34,000 cars. > > I told you 3 weeks ago, the first step in fixing this thing >is > > to install new factory thermostats. You have to establish >baselines > > of performance in a system in order to fix it. No other part of >the > > cooling system can be properly evaluated with malfunctioning > > thermostats in place. > > Thermostats get old, they wear out and they break. > > You asked my advice, I gave it to you, you argued with me and > > went out and bought a new toy that costs about 7 times what a > > thermostat would cost and now you want me to answer more questions. > > My question to you is, do you want to screw around or do you >want > > to fix this thing? > > > > George Witt > > 81 FC 35 > > Lincoln, Nebraska > > > > --- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, "transit360" > > > > > Tom and George, > > > > > > OK, sorry guys. I forgot to mention I also shot a temp >reading on > > > the hose going in and out of the water pump, both at around 200 > > > degrees also. > > > To be honest with you, I'm not sure where my thermostat is. >I'm > > > assuming it's in a usual spot near the water pump, but I've >never > > > worked on the 8.3 Cummins before, and I've been trying to find a > > > manual for a month. But it should be a no-brainer. > > > So I'm gathering that we're suspecting improper coolant >flow, > > > which could be caused by a stuck thermostat or possibly a weak >water > > > pump? I'm assuming when I locate the thermostat that I should be > > > able to shoot it at operating temp and the temp should be the >same > > > on both sides, otherwise a temp difference would indicate it's > > > closed, yes? Sounds feasible. > > > However, this is pretty much how this bus has always run, > > > around 200 degrees on the highway. Wouldn't it overheat if the > > > thermostat stayed closed? Could it be partially open or closed? >That > > > would restrict flow but maybe not enough to totally overheat the > > > engine? > > > > > > Thanks, > > > Steve > > > 2 '98 Bluebird QBRE Partybuses > > > > > > --- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, Tom Warner > > > > wrote: > > > > George what he established is that the radiator is not >exhanging > > > heat. > > > > There should be only about a 10-15 degree difference between >the > > > temp at > > > > the top and bottom. If not the coolant is not flowing more >then > > > likely > > > > because the thermostat is not open. > > > > > > > > tom > > > > 1982 FC35 > > > > Vernon Center,Ny > > > > > > > > At 02:15 AM 7/20/2005 +0000, you wrote: > > > > >Steve, > > > > > You've established that the radiator, at the current flow > > > > >rate, is capable of exchanging heat. > > > > > What you haven't established is if there's any water >flow. > > > > >With that deep a drop in temperature, does that tell you that > > > maybe > > > > >the coolant is flowing too slowly? > > > > > Use your Raytek infrared temp gun to tell you if the > > > thermostat > > > > >is working properly. > > > > > > > > > > George Witt > > > > > 81 FC 35 > > > > > Lincoln, Nebraska > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >--- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, "transit360" > > > > > > > > > > > I just got my new Raytek infrared temp gun and was >getting > > > some > > > > > > shots on my 8.3 Cummins pusher in my '98 QBRE Partybus. I >shot > > > the > > > > > > top of the radiator and it read 200 degrees, which is what >my > > > bus > > > > > > temp gauge said. I shot the lower radiator hose and it >read 130 > > > > > > degrees. > > > > > > I made sure to test location and reposition my gun >several > > > > > > times, and this is what I got. Should there be such a >drastic > > > change > > > > > > in temp through the radiator? I was expecting about 15-20 > > > degrees > > > > > > difference. Could this indicate any problems? > > > > > > > > > > > > Second question: My temp gauge on the dash has green >(safe) > > > > > > markings up to 220 degrees. Past 220, it reads in the red. >My > > > bird > > > > > > typically runs at 200 degrees while riding. Is this >normal? > > > Seems a > > > > > > little on the warm side but this is my first Cummins as I >have > > > dealt > > > > > > primarily with 8.2 and 6V71 Detroits in the past. My other > > > Bluebird > > > > > > partybus (same exact bus) runs at about 190, although I >haven't > > > > > > confirmed it with the temp gun like the first. > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks, > > > > > > Steve > > > > > > 2 '98 Bluebird QBRE Partybuses > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >---------- > > > > >YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS > > > > > > > > > > * Visit your group > > > > > > > > > > "<<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/WanderlodgeForum>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/\ WanderlodgeForum>WanderlodgeForum" > > > > on the web. > > > > > * > > > > > * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > > > > > * > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > * > > > > > * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the > > > > > > <<http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>Yahoo! > Terms of Service. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >---------- > > > > >---------- >YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS > > * Visit your group > "<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/WanderlodgeForum>WanderlodgeForum" on the web. > * > * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > * > odgeForum-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > * > * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the > <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>Yahoo! Terms of Service. > > >---------- |
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07-20-2005, 11:32
Post: #14
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Radiator temp in/out and temp gauge readings
So I took out my thermostats on the 8.3 Cummins. Two small ones,
as you might have guessed. Looked a little rusty in the thermo housing by the way. Put them in water and heated them to boiling. Each one barely opened enough so you could see daylight from the bottom side. I took some needlenose and pulled the thermostat rod out. It's about an inch long. I'm assuming that most thermostats are the same so correct me if I'm wrong, but shouldn't the thermostats be capable of opening up the full rod length at temp well over 200? Possibly up to an inch? Just wanted to be sure to get a second opinion. I'm open to any fact that may be evident, which includes a thermostat that could possibly be designed to open by the slightest of gaps. However if the thermostat is supposed to open wider, then that means that the thermostat opened partially at operating temp, thus the coolant flow would have been reduced, thus making it get hotter under demand. Don't worry, I'm going to the parts store tomorrow to get two new thermostats and I'm testing them as well and then replacing the old ones. Just wanted to double check and get a full understanding of each mechanism and function, of even a thermostat rod. Also, I'm going to test my antifreeze mixture in the engine. It looked a little thin. Do I need to do this after I run the engine so it's evenly mixed, or can I just test any of the antifreeze I drained out b/c it's already mixed properly? I would really like to flush the system due to the brackishness of it, but I'm really hesitant until I get an full manual of all the systems of this bus. Would anybody know where I could get a manual for this Bluebird QBRE? I've contacted National Bus Sales in Georgia (the local Bluebird dealer) and no luck yet. Thanks Steve 2 '98 QBRE Partybuses --- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, Tom Warner wrote: > You obviously are not listening to all of the advice you were given. If you > have a temperature gauge on your dash then you can very easily tell if your > thermostats are opening at the proper time and working correctly. WATCH the > gauge that is what they put it there for. The temperature will continue to > climb but should hit the thermostat temperature quickly when the engine is > running and you can see as the thermostat opens since the temp will start > to drop. Then the temp will stop going down again and slowly build up until > the thermostat once again opens and this cycle will continue until it > stabalizes. If the temp does not rise rather quickly after running the > engine with the bus moving, then most likely the thermostats are not > closing and are wide open. If the temp keeps climbing with out cycling off > and on then the thermostat is frozen shut. > If the bottom hose on the radiator is always cold, then once again the > thermostat is not opening and coolant is not flowing thru the radiator. > Same thing when you take the radiator cap off and watch the coolant flow > thru the radiator. You can tell when the thermostat opens since you will > immediately see coolant flow past the radiator neck. > > For all of these you dont need a toy...you need to understand how the > cooling system works and how to troubleshoot it. > > tom > 1982 FC35 > Vernon Center, NY > > > At 03:43 PM 7/20/2005 +0000, you wrote: > >George, > > > > 1. First of all, the post you are referring to was about a > >different bus, on my RTS, with a different problem. It turned out > >that deep within the radiator fins there was crud and buildup on > >over half the radiator, thus making cooling difficult. This current > >problem is with a Bluebird. > > 2. It was just over a week ago when I addressed this problem, > >not three, and it's a long term project so I'm in no rush. I'm in > >the process of learning as much as I can about the Bluebird bus > >line, so forgive me if I ask a lot of questions. > > 3. Your advice was to replace the thermostats. I had 3 members > >from this board and 3 others from another board tell me to get the > >infrared gun to help diagnosis, so I did. > > 4. I don't recall argueing with anyone on this board about any > >of their advice. I appreciate everyone's input and gain as much I > >can from what they state. Your's was helpful also and gave me > >something to think about. > > 5. I wanted to get a tool that I could use in the future as well > >as now. I'm sure all the folks that told me to get it don't think of > >it as a "toy", but as a valuable tool to diagnose problems instead > >of just throwing parts at an engine. > > 6. I was just curious if you could diagnose a bad thermostat > >without having to loosen the hoses, lose antifreeze, test and > >replace the part and gasket, bleed the system if needed, and dispose > >of old antifreeze. I'm a big fan of making a quick diagnosis if > >possible. And from what I can tell, this gun will be able to help do > >that. So in the time it would take for me do all that, the toy would > >have paid for itself. > > > > If you wish to offer any advice please do. But I hate screwing > >around as much as anyone would. That's why I followed the majority's > >advice. > > And I'm taking it that there is NO possible way that you think a > >bad thermostat can be diagnosed without taking it out. I won't argue > >with you since you have the experience. Thanks again for your input. > > > >Steve > >2 '98 QBRE Bluebird > > > > > > > >--- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, "mrdonut12" > ><mrdonut12@y...> wrote: > > > > > > Steve, > > > Forgive me if I'm a little short with you, but I'm a > >professional > > > mechanic with over 30 years experience, ASE Certified Master > > > Technician, Advanced L-1 Engine Performance Certification, > > > Service Advisor Certification and I own one of the best auto repair > > > shops in the US. In 10 years in business, my shop has fixed over > > > 34,000 cars. > > > I told you 3 weeks ago, the first step in fixing this thing > >is > > > to install new factory thermostats. You have to establish > >baselines > > > of performance in a system in order to fix it. No other part of > >the > > > cooling system can be properly evaluated with malfunctioning > > > thermostats in place. > > > Thermostats get old, they wear out and they break. > > > You asked my advice, I gave it to you, you argued with me and > > > went out and bought a new toy that costs about 7 times what a > > > thermostat would cost and now you want me to answer more questions. > > > My question to you is, do you want to screw around or do you > >want > > > to fix this thing? > > > > > > George Witt > > > 81 FC 35 > > > Lincoln, Nebraska > > > > > > --- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, "transit360" > > > > > > > Tom and George, > > > > > > > > OK, sorry guys. I forgot to mention I also shot a temp > >reading on > > > > the hose going in and out of the water pump, both at around 200 > > > > degrees also. > > > > To be honest with you, I'm not sure where my thermostat is. > >I'm > > > > assuming it's in a usual spot near the water pump, but I've > >never > > > > worked on the 8.3 Cummins before, and I've been trying to find a > > > > manual for a month. But it should be a no-brainer. > > > > So I'm gathering that we're suspecting improper coolant > >flow, > > > > which could be caused by a stuck thermostat or possibly a weak > >water > > > > pump? I'm assuming when I locate the thermostat that I should be > > > > able to shoot it at operating temp and the temp should be the > >same > > > > on both sides, otherwise a temp difference would indicate it's > > > > closed, yes? Sounds feasible. > > > > However, this is pretty much how this bus has always run, > > > > around 200 degrees on the highway. Wouldn't it overheat if the > > > > thermostat stayed closed? Could it be partially open or closed? > >That > > > > would restrict flow but maybe not enough to totally overheat the > > > > engine? > > > > > > > > Thanks, > > > > Steve > > > > 2 '98 Bluebird QBRE Partybuses > > > > > > > > --- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, Tom Warner > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > George what he established is that the radiator is not > >exhanging > > > > heat. > > > > > There should be only about a 10-15 degree difference between > >the > > > > temp at > > > > > the top and bottom. If not the coolant is not flowing more > >then > > > > likely > > > > > because the thermostat is not open. > > > > > > > > > > tom > > > > > 1982 FC35 > > > > > Vernon Center,Ny > > > > > > > > > > At 02:15 AM 7/20/2005 +0000, you wrote: > > > > > >Steve, > > > > > > You've established that the radiator, at the current flow > > > > > >rate, is capable of exchanging heat. > > > > > > What you haven't established is if there's any water > >flow. > > > > > >With that deep a drop in temperature, does that tell you that > > > > maybe > > > > > >the coolant is flowing too slowly? > > > > > > Use your Raytek infrared temp gun to tell you if the > > > > thermostat > > > > > >is working properly. > > > > > > > > > > > > George Witt > > > > > > 81 FC 35 > > > > > > Lincoln, Nebraska > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >--- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, "transit360" > > > > > > > > > > > > > I just got my new Raytek infrared temp gun and was > >getting > > > > some > > > > > > > shots on my 8.3 Cummins pusher in my '98 QBRE Partybus. I > >shot > > > > the > > > > > > > top of the radiator and it read 200 degrees, which is what > >my > > > > bus > > > > > > > temp gauge said. I shot the lower radiator hose and it > >read 130 > > > > > > > degrees. > > > > > > > I made sure to test location and reposition my gun > >several > > > > > > > times, and this is what I got. Should there be such a > >drastic > > > > change > > > > > > > in temp through the radiator? I was expecting about 15- 20 > > > > degrees > > > > > > > difference. Could this indicate any problems? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Second question: My temp gauge on the dash has green > >(safe) > > > > > > > markings up to 220 degrees. Past 220, it reads in the red. > >My > > > > bird > > > > > > > typically runs at 200 degrees while riding. Is this > >normal? > > > > Seems a > > > > > > > little on the warm side but this is my first Cummins as I > >have > > > > dealt > > > > > > > primarily with 8.2 and 6V71 Detroits in the past. My other > > > > Bluebird > > > > > > > partybus (same exact bus) runs at about 190, although I > >haven't > > > > > > > confirmed it with the temp gun like the first. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks, > > > > > > > Steve > > > > > > > 2 '98 Bluebird QBRE Partybuses > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >---------- > > > > > >YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS > > > > > > > > > > > > * Visit your group > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "<<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/WanderlodgeForum>http://groups.yah oo.com/group/WanderlodgeForum>WanderlodgeForum" > > > > > > on the web. > > > > > > * > > > > > > * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > > > > > > * > > > > > > unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > > > > > > > * > > > > > > * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the > > > > > > > > <<http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ >Yahoo! > > Terms of Service. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >---------- > > > > > > > > > >---------- > >YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS > > > > * Visit your group > > "<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/WanderlodgeForum>WanderlodgeForum" on the web. > > * > > * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > > * > > > > > > * > > * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the > > <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>Yahoo! Terms of Service. > > > > > >---------- |
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07-20-2005, 11:36
Post: #15
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Radiator temp in/out and temp gauge readings
BTW, I wanted to make sure my temp gauge was accurate b/c I've
had a few that have gone bad or ended up getting a mixed signal if they are electric and someone accidently spliced into it, which is another reason why I wanted to doublecheck it with the Raytek for redundancy. Turns out the gauge is accurate but it gives me comfort to be sure, especially with a new bus I'm not familiar with. Steve 2 '98 QBRE Partybuses --- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, "transit360" > So I took out my thermostats on the 8.3 Cummins. Two small ones, > as you might have guessed. Looked a little rusty in the thermo > housing by the way. > Put them in water and heated them to boiling. Each one barely > opened enough so you could see daylight from the bottom side. > I took some needlenose and pulled the thermostat rod out. It's > about an inch long. I'm assuming that most thermostats are the same > so correct me if I'm wrong, but shouldn't the thermostats be capable > of opening up the full rod length at temp well over 200? Possibly up > to an inch? Just wanted to be sure to get a second opinion. I'm open > to any fact that may be evident, which includes a thermostat that > could possibly be designed to open by the slightest of gaps. > However if the thermostat is supposed to open wider, then that > means that the thermostat opened partially at operating temp, thus > the coolant flow would have been reduced, thus making it get hotter > under demand. > Don't worry, I'm going to the parts store tomorrow to get two > new thermostats and I'm testing them as well and then replacing the > old ones. Just wanted to double check and get a full understanding > of each mechanism and function, of even a thermostat rod. > Also, I'm going to test my antifreeze mixture in the engine. It > looked a little thin. Do I need to do this after I run the engine so > it's evenly mixed, or can I just test any of the antifreeze I > drained out b/c it's already mixed properly? > I would really like to flush the system due to the > brackishness of it, but I'm really hesitant until I get an full > manual of all the systems of this bus. Would anybody know where I > could get a manual for this Bluebird QBRE? I've contacted National > Bus Sales in Georgia (the local Bluebird dealer) and no luck yet. > > Thanks > Steve > 2 '98 QBRE Partybuses > > > --- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, Tom Warner > wrote: > > You obviously are not listening to all of the advice you were > given. If you > > have a temperature gauge on your dash then you can very easily > tell if your > > thermostats are opening at the proper time and working correctly. > WATCH the > > gauge that is what they put it there for. The temperature will > continue to > > climb but should hit the thermostat temperature quickly when the > engine is > > running and you can see as the thermostat opens since the temp > will start > > to drop. Then the temp will stop going down again and slowly build > up until > > the thermostat once again opens and this cycle will continue until > it > > stabalizes. If the temp does not rise rather quickly after running > the > > engine with the bus moving, then most likely the thermostats are > not > > closing and are wide open. If the temp keeps climbing with out > cycling off > > and on then the thermostat is frozen shut. > > If the bottom hose on the radiator is always cold, then once again > the > > thermostat is not opening and coolant is not flowing thru the > radiator. > > Same thing when you take the radiator cap off and watch the > coolant flow > > thru the radiator. You can tell when the thermostat opens since > you will > > immediately see coolant flow past the radiator neck. > > > > For all of these you dont need a toy...you need to understand how > the > > cooling system works and how to troubleshoot it. > > > > tom > > 1982 FC35 > > Vernon Center, NY > > > > > > At 03:43 PM 7/20/2005 +0000, you wrote: > > >George, > > > > > > 1. First of all, the post you are referring to was about a > > >different bus, on my RTS, with a different problem. It turned out > > >that deep within the radiator fins there was crud and buildup on > > >over half the radiator, thus making cooling difficult. This > current > > >problem is with a Bluebird. > > > 2. It was just over a week ago when I addressed this problem, > > >not three, and it's a long term project so I'm in no rush. I'm in > > >the process of learning as much as I can about the Bluebird bus > > >line, so forgive me if I ask a lot of questions. > > > 3. Your advice was to replace the thermostats. I had 3 > members > > >from this board and 3 others from another board tell me to get the > > >infrared gun to help diagnosis, so I did. > > > 4. I don't recall argueing with anyone on this board about > any > > >of their advice. I appreciate everyone's input and gain as much I > > >can from what they state. Your's was helpful also and gave me > > >something to think about. > > > 5. I wanted to get a tool that I could use in the future as > well > > >as now. I'm sure all the folks that told me to get it don't think > of > > >it as a "toy", but as a valuable tool to diagnose problems instead > > >of just throwing parts at an engine. > > > 6. I was just curious if you could diagnose a bad thermostat > > >without having to loosen the hoses, lose antifreeze, test and > > >replace the part and gasket, bleed the system if needed, and > dispose > > >of old antifreeze. I'm a big fan of making a quick diagnosis if > > >possible. And from what I can tell, this gun will be able to help > do > > >that. So in the time it would take for me do all that, the toy > would > > >have paid for itself. > > > > > > If you wish to offer any advice please do. But I hate > screwing > > >around as much as anyone would. That's why I followed the > majority's > > >advice. > > > And I'm taking it that there is NO possible way that you > think a > > >bad thermostat can be diagnosed without taking it out. I won't > argue > > >with you since you have the experience. Thanks again for your > input. > > > > > >Steve > > >2 '98 QBRE Bluebird > > > > > > > > > > > >--- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, "mrdonut12" > > ><mrdonut12@y...> wrote: > > > > > > > > Steve, > > > > Forgive me if I'm a little short with you, but I'm a > > >professional > > > > mechanic with over 30 years experience, ASE Certified Master > > > > Technician, Advanced L-1 Engine Performance Certification, > > > > Service Advisor Certification and I own one of the best auto > repair > > > > shops in the US. In 10 years in business, my shop has fixed > over > > > > 34,000 cars. > > > > I told you 3 weeks ago, the first step in fixing this > thing > > >is > > > > to install new factory thermostats. You have to establish > > >baselines > > > > of performance in a system in order to fix it. No other part > of > > >the > > > > cooling system can be properly evaluated with malfunctioning > > > > thermostats in place. > > > > Thermostats get old, they wear out and they break. > > > > You asked my advice, I gave it to you, you argued with me > and > > > > went out and bought a new toy that costs about 7 times what a > > > > thermostat would cost and now you want me to answer more > questions. > > > > My question to you is, do you want to screw around or do > you > > >want > > > > to fix this thing? > > > > > > > > George Witt > > > > 81 FC 35 > > > > Lincoln, Nebraska > > > > > > > > --- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, "transit360" > > > > > > > > > Tom and George, > > > > > > > > > > OK, sorry guys. I forgot to mention I also shot a temp > > >reading on > > > > > the hose going in and out of the water pump, both at around > 200 > > > > > degrees also. > > > > > To be honest with you, I'm not sure where my thermostat > is. > > >I'm > > > > > assuming it's in a usual spot near the water pump, but I've > > >never > > > > > worked on the 8.3 Cummins before, and I've been trying to > find a > > > > > manual for a month. But it should be a no-brainer. > > > > > So I'm gathering that we're suspecting improper coolant > > >flow, > > > > > which could be caused by a stuck thermostat or possibly a > weak > > >water > > > > > pump? I'm assuming when I locate the thermostat that I > should be > > > > > able to shoot it at operating temp and the temp should be the > > >same > > > > > on both sides, otherwise a temp difference would indicate > it's > > > > > closed, yes? Sounds feasible. > > > > > However, this is pretty much how this bus has always > run, > > > > > around 200 degrees on the highway. Wouldn't it overheat if > the > > > > > thermostat stayed closed? Could it be partially open or > closed? > > >That > > > > > would restrict flow but maybe not enough to totally overheat > the > > > > > engine? > > > > > > > > > > Thanks, > > > > > Steve > > > > > 2 '98 Bluebird QBRE Partybuses > > > > > > > > > > --- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, Tom Warner > > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > George what he established is that the radiator is not > > >exhanging > > > > > heat. > > > > > > There should be only about a 10-15 degree difference > between > > >the > > > > > temp at > > > > > > the top and bottom. If not the coolant is not flowing more > > >then > > > > > likely > > > > > > because the thermostat is not open. > > > > > > > > > > > > tom > > > > > > 1982 FC35 > > > > > > Vernon Center,Ny > > > > > > > > > > > > At 02:15 AM 7/20/2005 +0000, you wrote: > > > > > > >Steve, > > > > > > > You've established that the radiator, at the current > flow > > > > > > >rate, is capable of exchanging heat. > > > > > > > What you haven't established is if there's any water > > >flow. > > > > > > >With that deep a drop in temperature, does that tell you > that > > > > > maybe > > > > > > >the coolant is flowing too slowly? > > > > > > > Use your Raytek infrared temp gun to tell you if the > > > > > thermostat > > > > > > >is working properly. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > George Witt > > > > > > > 81 FC 35 > > > > > > > Lincoln, Nebraska > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >--- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, "transit360" > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I just got my new Raytek infrared temp gun and was > > >getting > > > > > some > > > > > > > > shots on my 8.3 Cummins pusher in my '98 QBRE > Partybus. I > > >shot > > > > > the > > > > > > > > top of the radiator and it read 200 degrees, which is > what > > >my > > > > > bus > > > > > > > > temp gauge said. I shot the lower radiator hose and it > > >read 130 > > > > > > > > degrees. > > > > > > > > I made sure to test location and reposition my gun > > >several > > > > > > > > times, and this is what I got. Should there be such a > > >drastic > > > > > change > > > > > > > > in temp through the radiator? I was expecting about 15- > 20 > > > > > degrees > > > > > > > > difference. Could this indicate any problems? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Second question: My temp gauge on the dash has > green > > >(safe) > > > > > > > > markings up to 220 degrees. Past 220, it reads in the > red. > > >My > > > > > bird > > > > > > > > typically runs at 200 degrees while riding. Is this > > >normal? > > > > > Seems a > > > > > > > > little on the warm side but this is my first Cummins > as I > > >have > > > > > dealt > > > > > > > > primarily with 8.2 and 6V71 Detroits in the past. My > other > > > > > Bluebird > > > > > > > > partybus (same exact bus) runs at about 190, although I > > >haven't > > > > > > > > confirmed it with the temp gun like the first. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks, > > > > > > > > Steve > > > > > > > > 2 '98 Bluebird QBRE Partybuses > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >---------- > > > > > > >YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS > > > > > > > > > > > > > > * Visit your group > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "<<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/WanderlodgeForum>http://groups.yah > oo.com/group/WanderlodgeForum>WanderlodgeForum" > > > > > > > > on the web. > > > > > > > * > > > > > > > * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > > > > > > > * > > > > > > > > unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > * > > > > > > > * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the > > > > > > > > > > > <<http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > >Yahoo! > > > Terms of Service. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >---------- > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >---------- > > >YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS > > > > > > * Visit your group > > > > "<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/WanderlodgeForum>WanderlodgeForum" > on the web. > > > * > > > * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > > > * > > > > > > > > > * > > > * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the > > > <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>Yahoo! Terms of Service. > > > > > > > > >---------- |
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07-20-2005, 22:25
Post: #16
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Radiator temp in/out and temp gauge readings
Bingo!! The thermostats should open wide and represent
no restriction to the flow of coolant. You have 2 bad ones. Don't go to the parts store. They'll likely sell you cheap junk. Go to a Cummins dealer and get factory parts. Regarding the coolant, you can test what came out. It should test -34 degrees, that's a 50/50 mix. I've found that coolant testers lose accuracy with age. Calibrate it using a known mix of 50% coolant and water to see if the tester is accurate. George Witt 81 FC 35 Lincoln, Nebraska --- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, "transit360" > So I took out my thermostats on the 8.3 Cummins. Two small ones, > as you might have guessed. Looked a little rusty in the thermo > housing by the way. > Put them in water and heated them to boiling. Each one barely > opened enough so you could see daylight from the bottom side. > I took some needlenose and pulled the thermostat rod out. It's > about an inch long. I'm assuming that most thermostats are the same > so correct me if I'm wrong, but shouldn't the thermostats be capable > of opening up the full rod length at temp well over 200? Possibly up > to an inch? Just wanted to be sure to get a second opinion. I'm open > to any fact that may be evident, which includes a thermostat that > could possibly be designed to open by the slightest of gaps. > However if the thermostat is supposed to open wider, then that > means that the thermostat opened partially at operating temp, thus > the coolant flow would have been reduced, thus making it get hotter > under demand. > Don't worry, I'm going to the parts store tomorrow to get two > new thermostats and I'm testing them as well and then replacing the > old ones. Just wanted to double check and get a full understanding > of each mechanism and function, of even a thermostat rod. > Also, I'm going to test my antifreeze mixture in the engine. It > looked a little thin. Do I need to do this after I run the engine so > it's evenly mixed, or can I just test any of the antifreeze I > drained out b/c it's already mixed properly? > I would really like to flush the system due to the > brackishness of it, but I'm really hesitant until I get an full > manual of all the systems of this bus. Would anybody know where I > could get a manual for this Bluebird QBRE? I've contacted National > Bus Sales in Georgia (the local Bluebird dealer) and no luck yet. > > Thanks > Steve > 2 '98 QBRE Partybuses > > |
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