AC dead short?
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08-22-2006, 04:09
Post: #1
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AC dead short?
I have just developed a dead short in two circuits of my AC system.
The front receptacles and the vacuum cleaner circuits appear to be dead shorted. If they are on, the park circuit breaker (30 amps) trips. If they are off, I get normal service from the park. The thing these two circuits have in common is the AC meters on the dinette control panel. The front receptacles circuit provides power to one of the dinette AC meters while the vacuum cleaner circuit provides power to the other. I have removed all loads from both of these circuits with no change. I've pulled the cover from the breaker box and these breakers have only one 12ga. wire going to them, so the meters must be wired in downstream somewhere, but I have no idea where or even where to look. As a possibly related matter, about two weeks ago, after a lightning storm near Montreal, I noted that the polarity indicators in my service box (the place where shore power is connected) are no longer working. As there are also polarity indicators on the dinette panel, there is a possible likage here. However, there was a two + week span of normality between the loss of polarity lights in the service box and the short circuits in the AC panel. No incident occurred prior to the AC loss; it worked fine in one park, we took a long (15 hour ferry ride) with the DC systems shut down, and had the shorts as soon as I plugged in at the next park. If anyone has any ideas as to what this might be, I'd be glad to hear them. John Ely, 86PT40, Rapid City, SD On the road in Clarke's Beach, Newfoundland |
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08-22-2006, 04:27
Post: #2
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AC dead short?
Hi John,
Is there any chance that you have driven a screw into the wire runs somewhere? If you are handy with a multi-meter, you should check for continuity in each conductor from the electric panel to the outlet. (with ALL power off, of course) It is also possible that after 20 years, one of the extra-long screws that bluebird uses finally wore through some wire insulation somewhere. It is also possible that one of the wires in an outlet box came loose and is shorting against the side of the outlet box. If you are returning to SD later this month and don't mind a stop in Hershey, I'd be happy to help you trace out the circuit and find the short. Probably wouldn't take more than a few hours. Shane Fedeli 85PT40 Hershey, PA . --- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, "John Ely" > > I have just developed a dead short in two circuits of my AC system. > The front receptacles and the vacuum cleaner circuits appear to be > dead shorted. If they are on, the park circuit breaker (30 amps) > trips. If they are off, I get normal service from the park. The > thing these two circuits have in common is the AC meters on the > dinette control panel. The front receptacles circuit provides power > to one of the dinette AC meters while the vacuum cleaner circuit > provides power to the other. I have removed all loads from both of > these circuits with no change. I've pulled the cover from the breaker > box and these breakers have only one 12ga. wire going to them, so the > meters must be wired in downstream somewhere, but I have no idea where > or even where to look. As a possibly related matter, about two weeks > ago, after a lightning storm near Montreal, I noted that the polarity > indicators in my service box (the place where shore power is > connected) are no longer working. As there are also polarity > indicators on the dinette panel, there is a possible likage here. > However, there was a two + week span of normality between the loss of > polarity lights in the service box and the short circuits in the AC > panel. No incident occurred prior to the AC loss; it worked fine in > one park, we took a long (15 hour ferry ride) with the DC systems shut > down, and had the shorts as soon as I plugged in at the next park. > If anyone has any ideas as to what this might be, I'd be glad to hear > them. > John Ely, 86PT40, Rapid City, SD On the road in Clarke's Beach, > Newfoundland > |
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08-22-2006, 04:47
Post: #3
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AC dead short?
Is this a GFI protected pedestal outlet???
Usually they are on the 15/20 amp park hook- up circuits. An old Bird will trip GFI if the polarity tester lights have not been modified. Bill 88 FC --- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, "John Ely" > > I have just developed a dead short in two circuits of my AC system. > The front receptacles and the vacuum cleaner circuits appear to be > dead shorted. If they are on, the park circuit breaker (30 amps) > trips. If they are off, I get normal service from the park. The > thing these two circuits have in common is the AC meters on the > dinette control panel. The front receptacles circuit provides power > to one of the dinette AC meters while the vacuum cleaner circuit > provides power to the other. I have removed all loads from both of > these circuits with no change. I've pulled the cover from the breaker > box and these breakers have only one 12ga. wire going to them, so the > meters must be wired in downstream somewhere, but I have no idea where > or even where to look. As a possibly related matter, about two weeks > ago, after a lightning storm near Montreal, I noted that the polarity > indicators in my service box (the place where shore power is > connected) are no longer working. As there are also polarity > indicators on the dinette panel, there is a possible likage here. > However, there was a two + week span of normality between the loss of > polarity lights in the service box and the short circuits in the AC > panel. No incident occurred prior to the AC loss; it worked fine in > one park, we took a long (15 hour ferry ride) with the DC systems shut > down, and had the shorts as soon as I plugged in at the next park. > If anyone has any ideas as to what this might be, I'd be glad to hear > them. > John Ely, 86PT40, Rapid City, SD On the road in Clarke's Beach, > Newfoundland > |
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08-22-2006, 05:01
Post: #4
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AC dead short?
Bill,
Is this the modification where we send the dinette control panel to PMMI for mods? How about the polarity tester lights in the shore power connection panel, or does this get resolved by the modification to the dinette control panel? Curt Sprenger 1987 PT38, Anaheim Hills, Calif. pattypape wrote: > > > Is this a GFI protected pedestal outlet??? > Usually they are on the 15/20 amp park hook- up circuits. > An old Bird will trip GFI if the polarity tester lights > have not been modified. > > Bill 88 FC > > --- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > I have just developed a dead short in two circuits of my AC > system. > > The front receptacles and the vacuum cleaner circuits appear to be > > dead shorted. If they are on, the park circuit breaker (30 amps) > > trips. If they are off, I get normal service from the park. The > > thing these two circuits have in common is the AC meters on the > > dinette control panel. The front receptacles circuit provides > power > > to one of the dinette AC meters while the vacuum cleaner circuit > > provides power to the other. I have removed all loads from both > of > > these circuits with no change. I've pulled the cover from the > breaker > > box and these breakers have only one 12ga. wire going to them, so > the > > meters must be wired in downstream somewhere, but I have no idea > where > > or even where to look. As a possibly related matter, about two > weeks > > ago, after a lightning storm near Montreal, I noted that the > polarity > > indicators in my service box (the place where shore power is > > connected) are no longer working. As there are also polarity > > indicators on the dinette panel, there is a possible likage here. > > However, there was a two + week span of normality between the loss > of > > polarity lights in the service box and the short circuits in the > AC > > panel. No incident occurred prior to the AC loss; it worked fine > in > > one park, we took a long (15 hour ferry ride) with the DC systems > shut > > down, and had the shorts as soon as I plugged in at the next park. > > If anyone has any ideas as to what this might be, I'd be glad to > hear > > them. > > John Ely, 86PT40, Rapid City, SD On the road in Clarke's Beach, > > Newfoundland > > > > |
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08-22-2006, 05:30
Post: #5
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AC dead short?
Get a cheap $5 polarity tester that you can insert in each wall
receptacle and check for bad grounds etc. YOu should find the problem quickly using it. tom warner 1985 PT 40....just like shanes At 01:01 PM 8/22/2006, you wrote: >Bill, >Is this the modification where we send the dinette control panel to PMMI >for mods? How about the polarity tester lights in the shore power >connection panel, or does this get resolved by the modification to the >dinette control panel? > >Curt Sprenger 1987 PT38, Anaheim Hills, Calif. > > > >pattypape wrote: > > > > > > > Is this a GFI protected pedestal outlet??? > > Usually they are on the 15/20 amp park hook- up circuits. > > An old Bird will trip GFI if the polarity tester lights > > have not been modified. > > > > Bill 88 FC > > > > --- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > > > > > I have just developed a dead short in two circuits of my AC > > system. > > > The front receptacles and the vacuum cleaner circuits appear to be > > > dead shorted. If they are on, the park circuit breaker (30 amps) > > > trips. If they are off, I get normal service from the park. The > > > thing these two circuits have in common is the AC meters on the > > > dinette control panel. The front receptacles circuit provides > > power > > > to one of the dinette AC meters while the vacuum cleaner circuit > > > provides power to the other. I have removed all loads from both > > of > > > these circuits with no change. I've pulled the cover from the > > breaker > > > box and these breakers have only one 12ga. wire going to them, so > > the > > > meters must be wired in downstream somewhere, but I have no idea > > where > > > or even where to look. As a possibly related matter, about two > > weeks > > > ago, after a lightning storm near Montreal, I noted that the > > polarity > > > indicators in my service box (the place where shore power is > > > connected) are no longer working. As there are also polarity > > > indicators on the dinette panel, there is a possible likage here. > > > However, there was a two + week span of normality between the loss > > of > > > polarity lights in the service box and the short circuits in the > > AC > > > panel. No incident occurred prior to the AC loss; it worked fine > > in > > > one park, we took a long (15 hour ferry ride) with the DC systems > > shut > > > down, and had the shorts as soon as I plugged in at the next park. > > > If anyone has any ideas as to what this might be, I'd be glad to > > hear > > > them. > > > John Ely, 86PT40, Rapid City, SD On the road in Clarke's Beach, > > > Newfoundland > > > > > > > > > > > >Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > |
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08-22-2006, 06:58
Post: #6
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AC dead short?
Hi Curt, Welcome back,
This is a PMMI modification to the polarity lights in the outside power connection panel. These old Birds were designed before the GFI was popular. Behind this small panel is a few resisters and light emitting diodes. The resistors and lights must be changed as not to trip the 110v 15/20 amp GFI circuit breaker, which we rarely use. Therefore this issue does not arise very often. The 30amp and 50 amp pedestal plugs do not have GFI so there is no problem here. We do not have a dinette with a polarity light panel, so I am not familiar. We do have one polarity light in the top overhead dash far to the right near the AC volt meters. PMMI will repair the unit or they will send the parts for you to solder and replace. I did my own replacements, but if one is not familiar with solder in a tight place you may choose to send it to PMMI for a more professional job. Doug Hampton http://www.pmmi-inc.com/ This panel can be removed and the AC connections can still be used. Careful 110/220 volts can be present. Bill 88 FC Michigan --- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, Curt Sprenger > > Bill, > Is this the modification where we send the dinette control panel to PMMI > for mods? How about the polarity tester lights in the shore power > connection panel, or does this get resolved by the modification to the > dinette control panel? > > Curt Sprenger 1987 PT38, Anaheim Hills, Calif. > > > > pattypape wrote: > > > > > > > Is this a GFI protected pedestal outlet??? > > Usually they are on the 15/20 amp park hook- up circuits. > > An old Bird will trip GFI if the polarity tester lights > > have not been modified. > > > > Bill 88 FC > > > > --- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > > > > > I have just developed a dead short in two circuits of my AC > > system. > > > The front receptacles and the vacuum cleaner circuits appear to be > > > dead shorted. If they are on, the park circuit breaker (30 amps) > > > trips. If they are off, I get normal service from the park. The > > > thing these two circuits have in common is the AC meters on the > > > dinette control panel. The front receptacles circuit provides > > power > > > to one of the dinette AC meters while the vacuum cleaner circuit > > > provides power to the other. I have removed all loads from both > > of > > > these circuits with no change. I've pulled the cover from the > > breaker > > > box and these breakers have only one 12ga. wire going to them, so > > the > > > meters must be wired in downstream somewhere, but I have no idea > > where > > > or even where to look. As a possibly related matter, about two > > weeks > > > ago, after a lightning storm near Montreal, I noted that the > > polarity > > > indicators in my service box (the place where shore power is > > > connected) are no longer working. As there are also polarity > > > indicators on the dinette panel, there is a possible likage here. > > > However, there was a two + week span of normality between the loss > > of > > > polarity lights in the service box and the short circuits in the > > AC > > > panel. No incident occurred prior to the AC loss; it worked fine > > in > > > one park, we took a long (15 hour ferry ride) with the DC systems > > shut > > > down, and had the shorts as soon as I plugged in at the next park. > > > If anyone has any ideas as to what this might be, I'd be glad to > > hear > > > them. > > > John Ely, 86PT40, Rapid City, SD On the road in Clarke's Beach, > > > Newfoundland > > > > > > > > |
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08-22-2006, 10:24
Post: #7
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AC dead short?
Tom, A polarity tester operates when voltage is
present. A dead short trips the breakers before a reading could be made. Good for polarity testing, not good for dead shorts. A dead short is a ground on the line(s). The only way I know how to find one is to isolate by disconnecting sections of the system. You say 2 circuits, vaccum cleaner and front receptacles Are these tired together or seperate breakers? If seperate breakers, try one then the other. Power off, with a a multimeter on ohms position. Dead short is 0 ohms. If not, Isolate and check everything. Sometimes the load side of a breaker has more than one wire, to find out, remove the front. Bob Janes '87FC35 Greenville, SC --- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, Tom Warner wrote: > > Get a cheap $5 polarity tester that you can insert in each wall > receptacle and check for bad grounds etc. YOu should find the problem > quickly using it. > > tom warner > 1985 PT 40....just like shanes > > > > At 01:01 PM 8/22/2006, you wrote: > >Bill, > >Is this the modification where we send the dinette control panel to PMMI > >for mods? How about the polarity tester lights in the shore power > >connection panel, or does this get resolved by the modification to the > >dinette control panel? > > > >Curt Sprenger 1987 PT38, Anaheim Hills, Calif. > > > > > > > >pattypape wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > Is this a GFI protected pedestal outlet??? > > > Usually they are on the 15/20 amp park hook- up circuits. > > > An old Bird will trip GFI if the polarity tester lights > > > have not been modified. > > > > > > Bill 88 FC > > > > > > --- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I have just developed a dead short in two circuits of my AC > > > system. > > > > The front receptacles and the vacuum cleaner circuits appear to be > > > > dead shorted. If they are on, the park circuit breaker (30 amps) > > > > trips. If they are off, I get normal service from the park. The > > > > thing these two circuits have in common is the AC meters on the > > > > dinette control panel. The front receptacles circuit provides > > > power > > > > to one of the dinette AC meters while the vacuum cleaner circuit > > > > provides power to the other. I have removed all loads from both > > > of > > > > these circuits with no change. I've pulled the cover from the > > > breaker > > > > box and these breakers have only one 12ga. wire going to them, so > > > the > > > > meters must be wired in downstream somewhere, but I have no idea > > > where > > > > or even where to look. As a possibly related matter, about two > > > weeks > > > > ago, after a lightning storm near Montreal, I noted that the > > > polarity > > > > indicators in my service box (the place where shore power is > > > > connected) are no longer working. As there are also polarity > > > > indicators on the dinette panel, there is a possible likage here. > > > > However, there was a two + week span of normality between the loss > > > of > > > > polarity lights in the service box and the short circuits in the > > > AC > > > > panel. No incident occurred prior to the AC loss; it worked fine > > > in > > > > one park, we took a long (15 hour ferry ride) with the DC systems > > > shut > > > > down, and had the shorts as soon as I plugged in at the next park. > > > > If anyone has any ideas as to what this might be, I'd be glad to > > > hear > > > > them. > > > > John Ely, 86PT40, Rapid City, SD On the road in Clarke's Beach, > > > > Newfoundland > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > |
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08-22-2006, 12:13
Post: #8
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AC dead short?
One way I was taught a loooong time ago to chase shorts in automobile wiring
harnesses was to connect it to a 12 volt source with a turn signal blinker and a light bulb in series. Then follow the wire with an old boy scout compass. When the wire is energized it forces the needle to move. You can also use this method to locate wires. When the needle stops moving, you have passed the short. I know there are more sophisticated tools today, but none as cheap. Gardner 78FC33 -----Original Message----- From: WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of one_dusty_hoot Sent: Tuesday, August 22, 2006 6:25 PM To: WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com Subject: [WanderlodgeForum] Re: AC dead short? Tom, A polarity tester operates when voltage is present. A dead short trips the breakers before a reading could be made. Good for polarity testing, not good for dead shorts. A dead short is a ground on the line(s). The only way I know how to find one is to isolate by disconnecting sections of the system. You say 2 circuits, vaccum cleaner and front receptacles Are these tired together or seperate breakers? If seperate breakers, try one then the other. Power off, with a a multimeter on ohms position. Dead short is 0 ohms. If not, Isolate and check everything. Sometimes the load side of a breaker has more than one wire, to find out, remove the front. Bob Janes '87FC35 Greenville, SC --- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com wrote: > > Get a cheap $5 polarity tester that you can insert in each wall > receptacle and check for bad grounds etc. YOu should find the problem > quickly using it. > > tom warner > 1985 PT 40....just like shanes > > > > At 01:01 PM 8/22/2006, you wrote: > >Bill, > >Is this the modification where we send the dinette control panel to PMMI > >for mods? How about the polarity tester lights in the shore power > >connection panel, or does this get resolved by the modification to the > >dinette control panel? > > > >Curt Sprenger 1987 PT38, Anaheim Hills, Calif. > > > > > > > >pattypape wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > Is this a GFI protected pedestal outlet??? > > > Usually they are on the 15/20 amp park hook- up circuits. > > > An old Bird will trip GFI if the polarity tester lights > > > have not been modified. > > > > > > Bill 88 FC > > > > > > --- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I have just developed a dead short in two circuits of my AC > > > system. > > > > The front receptacles and the vacuum cleaner circuits appear to be > > > > dead shorted. If they are on, the park circuit breaker (30 amps) > > > > trips. If they are off, I get normal service from the park. The > > > > thing these two circuits have in common is the AC meters on the > > > > dinette control panel. The front receptacles circuit provides > > > power > > > > to one of the dinette AC meters while the vacuum cleaner circuit > > > > provides power to the other. I have removed all loads from both > > > of > > > > these circuits with no change. I've pulled the cover from the > > > breaker > > > > box and these breakers have only one 12ga. wire going to them, so > > > the > > > > meters must be wired in downstream somewhere, but I have no idea > > > where > > > > or even where to look. As a possibly related matter, about two > > > weeks > > > > ago, after a lightning storm near Montreal, I noted that the > > > polarity > > > > indicators in my service box (the place where shore power is > > > > connected) are no longer working. As there are also polarity > > > > indicators on the dinette panel, there is a possible likage here. > > > > However, there was a two + week span of normality between the loss > > > of > > > > polarity lights in the service box and the short circuits in the > > > AC > > > > panel. No incident occurred prior to the AC loss; it worked fine > > > in > > > > one park, we took a long (15 hour ferry ride) with the DC systems > > > shut > > > > down, and had the shorts as soon as I plugged in at the next park. > > > > If anyone has any ideas as to what this might be, I'd be glad to > > > hear > > > > them. > > > > John Ely, 86PT40, Rapid City, SD On the road in Clarke's Beach, > > > > Newfoundland > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] |
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08-22-2006, 13:12
Post: #9
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AC dead short?
Hi John -
Say, just open up the breaker panel and splice a 50 amp service directly to the bad circuit. Now just follow your nose to the smoke and you've found the short ) But seriously, its hard to find a problem like this even when I'm in your bus. Are you anywhere near the left coast these days? Hows things? BobG '84 FC31 WLII Olympia WA --- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, "John Ely" wrote: > > I have just developed a dead short in two circuits of my AC system. > The front receptacles and the vacuum cleaner circuits appear to be > dead shorted. If they are on, the park circuit breaker (30 amps) > trips. If they are off, I get normal service from the park. The > thing these two circuits have in common is the AC meters on the > dinette control panel. The front receptacles circuit provides power > to one of the dinette AC meters while the vacuum cleaner circuit > provides power to the other. I have removed all loads from both of > these circuits with no change. I've pulled the cover from the breaker > box and these breakers have only one 12ga. wire going to them, so the > meters must be wired in downstream somewhere, but I have no idea where > or even where to look. As a possibly related matter, about two weeks > ago, after a lightning storm near Montreal, I noted that the polarity > indicators in my service box (the place where shore power is > connected) are no longer working. As there are also polarity > indicators on the dinette panel, there is a possible likage here. > However, there was a two + week span of normality between the loss of > polarity lights in the service box and the short circuits in the AC > panel. No incident occurred prior to the AC loss; it worked fine in > one park, we took a long (15 hour ferry ride) with the DC systems shut > down, and had the shorts as soon as I plugged in at the next park. > If anyone has any ideas as to what this might be, I'd be glad to hear > them. > John Ely, 86PT40, Rapid City, SD On the road in Clarke's Beach, > Newfoundland > |
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08-23-2006, 03:30
Post: #10
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AC dead short?
Bill,
Thanks. I have a call to PMMI. Hope to hear from them today. Curt Sprenger 1987 PT38, Anaheim Hills, Calif. pattypape wrote: > Hi Curt, Welcome back, > > This is a PMMI modification to the polarity lights in the outside > power connection panel. These old Birds were designed before the GFI > was popular. Behind this small panel is a few resisters and light > emitting diodes. The resistors and lights must be changed as not > to trip the 110v 15/20 amp GFI circuit breaker, which we rarely use. > Therefore this issue does not arise very often. The 30amp and 50 amp > pedestal plugs do not have GFI so there is no problem here. > > We do not have a dinette with a polarity light panel, so I am not > familiar. We do have one polarity light in the top overhead dash far > to the right near the AC volt meters. > PMMI will repair the unit or they will send the parts for you to > solder and replace. I did my own replacements, but if one is not > familiar with solder in a tight place you may choose to send it to > PMMI for a more professional job. > > Doug Hampton http://www.pmmi-inc.com/ <http://www.pmmi-inc.com/> > > This panel can be removed and the AC connections can still be used. > Careful 110/220 volts can be present. > > Bill 88 FC Michigan > > --- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > Bill, > > Is this the modification where we send the dinette control panel > to PMMI > > for mods? How about the polarity tester lights in the shore power > > connection panel, or does this get resolved by the modification to > the > > dinette control panel? > > > > Curt Sprenger 1987 PT38, Anaheim Hills, Calif. > > > > > > > > pattypape wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > Is this a GFI protected pedestal outlet??? > > > Usually they are on the 15/20 amp park hook- up circuits. > > > An old Bird will trip GFI if the polarity tester lights > > > have not been modified. > > > > > > Bill 88 FC > > > > > > --- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I have just developed a dead short in two circuits of my AC > > > system. > > > > The front receptacles and the vacuum cleaner circuits appear > to be > > > > dead shorted. If they are on, the park circuit breaker (30 > amps) > > > > trips. If they are off, I get normal service from the park. The > > > > thing these two circuits have in common is the AC meters on the > > > > dinette control panel. The front receptacles circuit provides > > > power > > > > to one of the dinette AC meters while the vacuum cleaner > circuit > > > > provides power to the other. I have removed all loads from both > > > of > > > > these circuits with no change. I've pulled the cover from the > > > breaker > > > > box and these breakers have only one 12ga. wire going to them, > so > > > the > > > > meters must be wired in downstream somewhere, but I have no > idea > > > where > > > > or even where to look. As a possibly related matter, about two > > > weeks > > > > ago, after a lightning storm near Montreal, I noted that the > > > polarity > > > > indicators in my service box (the place where shore power is > > > > connected) are no longer working. As there are also polarity > > > > indicators on the dinette panel, there is a possible likage > here. > > > > However, there was a two + week span of normality between the > loss > > > of > > > > polarity lights in the service box and the short circuits in > the > > > AC > > > > panel. No incident occurred prior to the AC loss; it worked > fine > > > in > > > > one park, we took a long (15 hour ferry ride) with the DC > systems > > > shut > > > > down, and had the shorts as soon as I plugged in at the next > park. > > > > If anyone has any ideas as to what this might be, I'd be glad > to > > > hear > > > > them. > > > > John Ely, 86PT40, Rapid City, SD On the road in Clarke's Beach, > > > > Newfoundland > > > > > > > > > > > > > > |
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