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+--- Thread: Porpoising Bluebirds (/showthread.php?tid=6815)
Porpoising Bluebirds - birdshill123 - 06-04-2008 09:53
David and Brad:
I have been following your posts on this subject and found your
results very interesting. I worked in a huge truck chassis/spring
shop in my youth. Of course in those days rauckers were macho and
never complained about anything ! Hear that Greg?? One thing I did
learn about pickup trucks was that good shocks ere very important. We
sreviced trucks that went to the oil fields and front suspensions
were always being repaired. he Monroe rep had special shocks built
for these units. My own experience is as follows: factory shocks on
just about any vehicle are usually cheap junk. In 2001 I had a new
Chev Duramax duallie crew cab. We had a 11.5 Alepnlite slide in on
the back. It handld horribly. I dropped the rear shocks and you could
compress them with one hand. Extension could be done by a child.
Naively I took it to the deAler thinking they were faulty. Shop
foreman brough out a new shock. We pumped it a bunch and it was the
same. Installed 4 Rancho 9000's and it became a new truck!! Last year
I took off he Sachs shocks that were factory on our 02 Bounder with a
Freightliner. The shocks looked small enough to be from a Nissan
pickup. Installed new Koni FSD's and I could drive without white
knuckle fever. My point of all this jibberish is: Have you considered
installing different shocks? I dont know what BB uses on the LXI's
but maybe they are not enough shock. I know that Henderson had some
real brutes at Q. Of cousre they were pricey. Once a vehicle starts
porpoising the dynamics just keep it going. Sems to me that som real
shocks would solve the problem. I now that BB uses Konis on some
units but the FSD's are fairly new to the market. Alternatively have
you tried going to Henderson,s? I find them overpriced but they are
experts.
my 2 pesos worth
Bruce
1988 FC35
Porpoising Bluebirds - brad barton - 06-04-2008 09:56
Bruce, I think mine are big Koni's, but I can't tell you the model or capacity. Strangely enough, the problem seems to be the suspension was overbuilt with the anti-sway bar rather than underbuilt.
BradBarton00LXiDFW bbartonwx@...
To: WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com
From: birdshill123@...
Date: Wed, 4 Jun 2008 21:53:19 +0000
Subject: [WanderlodgeForum] Porpoising Bluebirds
David and Brad:
I have been following your posts on this subject and found your
results very interesting. I worked in a huge truck chassis/spring
shop in my youth. Of course in those days rauckers were macho and
never complained about anything ! Hear that Greg?? One thing I did
learn about pickup trucks was that good shocks ere very important. We
sreviced trucks that went to the oil fields and front suspensions
were always being repaired. he Monroe rep had special shocks built
for these units. My own experience is as follows: factory shocks on
just about any vehicle are usually cheap junk. In 2001 I had a new
Chev Duramax duallie crew cab. We had a 11.5 Alepnlite slide in on
the back. It handld horribly. I dropped the rear shocks and you could
compress them with one hand. Extension could be done by a child.
Naively I took it to the deAler thinking they were faulty. Shop
foreman brough out a new shock. We pumped it a bunch and it was the
same. Installed 4 Rancho 9000's and it became a new truck!! Last year
I took off he Sachs shocks that were factory on our 02 Bounder with a
Freightliner. The shocks looked small enough to be from a Nissan
pickup. Installed new Koni FSD's and I could drive without white
knuckle fever. My point of all this jibberish is: Have you considered
installing different shocks? I dont know what BB uses on the LXI's
but maybe they are not enough shock. I know that Henderson had some
real brutes at Q. Of cousre they were pricey. Once a vehicle starts
porpoising the dynamics just keep it going. Sems to me that som real
shocks would solve the problem. I now that BB uses Konis on some
units but the FSD's are fairly new to the market. Alternatively have
you tried going to Henderson,s? I find them overpriced but they are
experts.
my 2 pesos worth
Bruce
1988 FC35
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Porpoising Bluebirds - brad barton - 06-04-2008 11:05
David,
Let's use the verb "galloping" instead of porpoising. My spellchecker likes it a lot better.
And you're right about the combination ofweight transfer, road gallop and that ISRI air-loaded seat. If you don't have your seatbelt on, you're catching air under your derriere.
BradBarton00LXiDFW bbartonwx@...
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Porpoising Bluebirds - David Brady - 06-04-2008 11:52
Hi Bruce,
Thanks for the input and a sincere thank you for bringing up my
favorite
topic.
I'm running Koni FSD's on the drive and on the tag, and Koni adjustables
on the steer. Yes, Brad and I have tried everything regarding the LXi's
porpoising and I appreciate your input too. I think that "porpoising"
is
the wrong term in this case. The LXi, in it's stock form, doesn't
porpoise.
Ninety percent of the time, it's very composed and very compliant, and
this is why 99.99% of the owners are quite happy and do nothing to
change it's behavior. What it does do is transfer weight violently from
the front to back, and then from the back to front when hitting
a fairly large perturbance in the highway (picture Hwy 10 thru
Louisiana).
As Brad will surely agree, most LXi owners will cringe a little upon
sighting an oil spot on the highway ahead, a sure sign that most
vehicles
experience some sort of suspension "event" upon traversal. Not so in
the LXi. If both front tires hit the dip simultaneously, then the event
is probably no more severe than any other 50K lb vehicle. However,
if the dip is asymmetrical, meaning one front tire hits it first, which
is usually
the case, well... you had better have your seatbelt on cause the bus's
front
tires will hit hard, barely registering any suspension travel, and
instead
toss the bus's weight rearward only to load the rear suspension just
when
the rear tires are hitting the bump. At this point, and thanks to the
SRI air
seat, the driver is catapulted toward the ceiling. The weight transfer,
to-and-
fro, can be so severe you'd think that a front tire or airbag is about
to
blow. I tried everything to compose the bus, tag axle air pressure, tire
air pressures, Koni FSD's, full stiff front Koni's, heavy cargo
weight distribution, finely tuning ride height, countless calls to the
"experts".
Everything improved the problem, but nothing solved it. Not until I
removed the front sway bar. Then nirvana. The anti-sway bar on slide
equipped LXi's is monstrous: 2.125" in diameter and possessing over
4000 lb/in in spring rate. It's capable of creating a 64000 ft-lb
moment, or
torque, at full deflection. It virtually eliminates independent wheel
motion
at the steer axle, and when it winds up - look out! If your an LXi
owner,
it's gotta go: toss it in the garbage!
As I've learned, the LXi really is capable of a very good ride. It's got
good weight distribution, high tech hour glass shaped air bags,
315/80/22.5
tires, great Koni FSD shocks, and the Ridewell suspension typically
provides
very good independent wheel motion with good roll center and huge, long
life, rubber suspension bushing providing lots of compliance. All
the ingredients are there, but every LXi driver that you talk with will
tell
you that their buses ride rough. I've had one owner tell me that after
purchasing the bus brand new, he traded it 3 weeks later for an H series
prevost because the ride was so rough. I could have saved him some
money...
BTW, how's that Monaco?
David Brady
'02 LXi, NC
brad barton wrote:
Bruce, I think mine are big Koni's, but I can't tell you the model
or capacity. Strangely enough, the problem seems to be the suspension
was overbuilt with the anti-sway bar rather than underbuilt.Â
Brad Barton 00LXiDFW bbartonwx@hotmail.com
To: WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups. com
From: birdshill123@yahoo.com
Date: Wed, 4 Jun 2008 21:53:19 +0000
Subject: [WanderlodgeForum] Porpoising Bluebirds
David and Brad:
I have been following your posts on this subject and found your
results very interesting. I worked in a huge truck chassis/spring
shop in my youth. Of course in those days rauckers were macho and
never complained about anything ! Hear that Greg?? One thing I did
learn about pickup trucks was that good shocks ere very important. We
sreviced trucks that went to the oil fields and front suspensions
were always being repaired. he Monroe rep had special shocks built
for these units. My own experience is as follows: factory shocks on
just about any vehicle are usually cheap junk. In 2001 I had a new
Chev Duramax duallie crew cab. We had a 11.5 Alepnlite slide in on
the back. It handld horribly. I dropped the rear shocks and you could
compress them with one hand. Extension could be done by a child.
Naively I took it to the deAler thinking they were faulty. Shop
foreman brough out a new shock. We pumped it a bunch and it was the
same. Installed 4 Rancho 9000's and it became a new truck!! Last year
I took off he Sachs shocks that were factory on our 02 Bounder with a
Freightliner. The shocks looked small enough to be from a Nissan
pickup. Installed new Koni FSD's and I could drive without white
knuckle fever. My point of all this jibberish is: Have you considered
installing different shocks? I dont know what BB uses on the LXI's
but maybe they are not enough shock. I know that Henderson had some
real brutes at Q. Of cousre they were pricey. Once a vehicle starts
porpoising the dynamics just keep it going. Sems to me that som real
shocks would solve the problem. I now that BB uses Konis on some
units but the FSD's are fairly new to the market. Alternatively have
you tried going to Henderson,s? I find them overpriced but they are
experts.
my 2 pesos worth
Bruce
1988 FC35
Instantly invite friends from Facebook and other social networks
to join you on Windows Live⢠Messenger. Invite friends now!
No virus found in this incoming message.
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Porpoising Bluebirds - birdshill123 - 06-04-2008 12:56
Hi David:
It appears that my suggestion is worthless. I tried. I hope you guys
get that problem totally solved. Ther is a fellow who hnags ou on
RV.net and is also the President of the Yahoo Cat forum. Handle is
Wolfe 10 or wolf 10. He is very knowledgeble and owns a Foretravel. I
do remeber that he worked with Roadmaster sway bars. BTW: Do you use
the urethane bushings? The 99 LXI that I drove was probably the best
handling large vehicle I have ever driven.
My new Monaco: We are loving it but there is a huge larning curve.
Lts of electroncs that are new to me. Today I was telling my wife I
will have to install the Pressure pro system when I discoverd the
Alladin computer has a basic TP feature. All the wiring, both coach
and chassis are multiplexed. Everything is interconnected. You cannot
open the drivers door until the engine is off or the park brake is
applied. This is a 4 slide unit. The drivers chair automatically
moves forward when you bring in that slide. This is no BB but the
build quaity seems excellent.Lots of hardwoods, excellent drawer
construction, hige Jenn Air residential fridge, 37 inch LCD and
another 27 inch in the bedroom ( Sharp Aquos), energy management
system, 2800 Magnum tru sine, electric hose And power reels, lots of
leather, one piece windshield, semi monocoque, 10 air bags and 8
shocks. Where it is lacking as compared to a Bird is the 12 volt
system. only 6 6volt wet batteries for the coach. The BB's I looked
at had 4 or more 4D glass mats. BB also uses a huge alternator. I
think mine is 200 amps. But I do notice a lot of small things that
are not up to snuff. I guess I shouldnt compare it to my Bird. If it
had Sporlan valves I would feelat home!!! I am confident we will get
lots of enjoyment from this baby. We are currently at the J in Beloit
on our way to Canada.
Bruce
1988 FC
Porpoising Bluebirds - timvasqz - 06-04-2008 13:27
Thank you. 'porpoising' is a greek hazing task where you have to
bring a large date to the beer bust.
Greg
--- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, brad barton
<bbartonwx@...> wrote:
>
> David,
>
> Let's use the verb "galloping" instead of porpoising. My
spellchecker likes it a lot better.
> And you're right about the combination of weight transfer, road
gallop and that ISRI air-loaded seat. If you don't have your
seatbelt on, you're catching air under your derriere.
> Brad Barton 00LXiDFW bbartonwx@...
> _________________________________________________________________
> Now you can invite friends from Facebook and other groups to join
you on Windows Live⢠Messenger. Add now.
> https://www.invite2messenger.net/im/?source=TXT_EML_WLH_AddNow_Now
>
Porpoising Bluebirds - David Brady - 06-04-2008 14:22
Bruce,
Now your making me jealous, there's nothing like new. Four
slides has gotta blow your mind. I've been in a few and the
space is impressive. It sounds good and it looks good too; I
checked out the Monaco website. I'm interested to see what
kind of factory service they have. Certainly CCW is doing
wonderful things with Wanderlodge factory service, but prior
to them we bird owners definitely suffered in that category.
A friend with a Prevost tells me about the free parts shipping
and the automatic line of credit...
About the '99 LXi, I'd expect the non-slide LXi's not to have
the galloping problem. The non-slide BB's have a 1.75" anti-
sway bar. While still too stiff in my opinion, it's a whole lot
lighter than the 2.125" diameter bar on the slide equipped LXi's.
The difference in stiffness is a factor of two: 4000lb/in versus
2000lb/in spring rate.
David
'02 LXi, NC
birdshill123 wrote:
Hi David:
It appears that my suggestion is worthless. I tried. I hope you guys
get that problem totally solved. Ther is a fellow who hnags ou on
RV.net and is also the President of the Yahoo Cat forum. Handle is
Wolfe 10 or wolf 10. He is very knowledgeble and owns a Foretravel. I
do remeber that he worked with Roadmaster sway bars. BTW: Do you use
the urethane bushings? The 99 LXI that I drove was probably the best
handling large vehicle I have ever driven.
My new Monaco: We are loving it but there is a huge larning curve.
Lts of electroncs that are new to me. Today I was telling my wife I
will have to install the Pressure pro system when I discoverd the
Alladin computer has a basic TP feature. All the wiring, both coach
and chassis are multiplexed. Everything is interconnected. You cannot
open the drivers door until the engine is off or the park brake is
applied. This is a 4 slide unit. The drivers chair automatically
moves forward when you bring in that slide. This is no BB but the
build quaity seems excellent.Lots of hardwoods, excellent drawer
construction, hige Jenn Air residential fridge, 37 inch LCD and
another 27 inch in the bedroom ( Sharp Aquos), energy management
system, 2800 Magnum tru sine, electric hose And power reels, lots of
leather, one piece windshield, semi monocoque, 10 air bags and 8
shocks. Where it is lacking as compared to a Bird is the 12 volt
system. only 6 6volt wet batteries for the coach. The BB's I looked
at had 4 or more 4D glass mats. BB also uses a huge alternator. I
think mine is 200 amps. But I do notice a lot of small things that
are not up to snuff. I guess I shouldnt compare it to my Bird. If it
had Sporlan valves I would feelat home!!! I am confident we will get
lots of enjoyment from this baby. We are currently at the J in Beloit
on our way to Canada.
Bruce
1988 FC
No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 269.24.6/1481 - Release Date: 6/3/2008 7:31 PM