Ahh, the idiom of agreeing not to agree on something stands the age old
time respected value of men and women.
To infer that one would lead someone to false security is a little impotent
I should think. But then to not follow the directions of the subscribed
manner by a Manufacturer will, in fact, in this case, lead to frozen lines
and so forth.
One has to open the low water valve in the bath or in some instances the
kitchen area and to not open the spigot valve ( spigot valve is not the low
water point) to allow the water to drain from the piping with air, of
course the water is going to remain in the piping and freeze.
Another case in the point of air to remove water from a system, would be
draining the air tanks of air break systems. One opens a spigot on the
bottom of the air tank and let the air push the water out until there is no
longer a fine or any moisture, spray. From that observation, alone, one
must then conclude that the excess moisture has been removed.
One thing that we all agree on is that the water must be drained or removed
from the piping, or any device that holds water, in freeze areas.
Though I have only been in a few hundred Coaches, Bird's in fact, I do know
that each is made slightly different from any other, still, it remains that
air ( a gas under pressure) will move a solid (water, in it's liquid form)
out of the pipes, providing it has a place to escape to. I just trust the
systems and follow the directions. Use the pink stuff, of course, if that
works for a better feeling of well being, but run it through pipes that
have been cleared by air pressure. This of course, will alleviate any
problems with residual moisture. I or most techs, can actually winterize 10
Coaches with only 1 gallon of the antifreeze and be fully safe in doing so.
How that is done is to blow out the water in the prescribed manner, then
run in the antifreeze and follow that by blowing it out of the system as
well, collecting it on the out put side for the next application. This is
also done with the by pass on the water heater, which should have been
drained in any case.
Bottom line to everyone, do what you need to do to feel safe in
winterizing. Just remember to keep the anti freeze out of your water
heater, especially if it has an aluminium tank, this stuff will attach it
and destroy it over a period of time to a premature failure. And this was
my point in the beginning.
Gentlemen, let us not take this thread to the point of personal attacks,
but glean all of the information from it to protect the Coach systems.
Safe travels,
Ralph and Charolette Fullenwider
Ralph's RV Solutions, Duncan, Oklahoma
http://home.swbell.net/rlf47/index.htm
At 06:38 PM 6/15/2006 -0400, you wrote:
>Ralph I respect your expertise but this time I believe both you and
>Bob did not hit the nail on the head, but instead may have given some
>owners a false security in believing that the BB way of winterizing
>the lines by blowing air thru them was foolproof. It is not. But as
>always when two people disagree I believe it best to describe why so
>it does not become a contest of expertise (for I have little) but
>instead can air out the differences so others can make their own
>decisions. If blowing air thru the lines ensured that all of the
>water was expelled then why are there so many coaches with frozen pipes?
>
>In the case of the 1982 FC35 with a side bath that I had there was
>NOT an outside spigot as you describe for the low water point of the
>system. Were you perhaps describing a rear bath coach? In my case
>the low point was supposed to be a valve under the bathroom sink that
>was parallel to the floor and that emptied thru the floor to the
>underside of the coach. But even if that were true it would not
>alter my disagreement that air is not a fool proof way to remove all
>of the water from the lines so that when the cold weather hits for
>even a single night you can GUARANTEE that even a single pipe will
>not freeze. Bluebird designed the fresh water system when winterizing
>with the air pressure method to first empty the hot water heater and
>the fresh water tank by flowing out the rear of the coach in the case
>of the hot water heater and in the case of the fresh water tank to
>flow to the lowest point which in my case was the valve underneath
>the bathroom cabinet. But again that point is only the low point if
>the coach is on a level surface. Even a slight uphill attitude of
>the front of the coach can cause the air to blow by the last of the
>water in the long lines which extend from the rear water heater on a
>Side bath coach to under the bathroom sink. When the air is shutoff
>the small risidual amount of water that is left in the bottom of the
>lines as the air blows over it, will flow backwards to the new lowest
>point and settles there ready to be frozen. And it will if the inside
>temperature falls below freezing.
> I have been lucky that my has not frozen and I have taken
>extraordinary precautions to ensure it did not. In the future I want
>to make it sure and fast when winterizing. I believe if it is
>possible that most will chose this method to relieve the doubts. I
>know I dont want to replace a copper line in my coach and cause even
>more problems with the new PEX line which undoubtably will not be
>perfectly straight and cause even more water to be trapped.
>
>With a hotwater bypass and a few other slight changes in the
>winterizing method I believe it is possible to completely winterize
>the system without the solution coming into contact with the fresh
>water or hot water tanks. In addition once winterized I want to be
>able to purge the solution by simply turning on the water pump and
>pumping fresh water into the system replacing the winterizing
>solution into the waste tanks. I did exactly that on my 1976 GMC
>motorhome and I will do the same on the 1985 PT 40 that I now own.
>
>If others are interested in doing it that way, and getting rid of the
>doubts of whether a pipe will freeze or not, then when mine is
>completed I will be glad to show others how to do it. If not then
>they may continue doing it the way they chose.
>
>Tom Warner
>Vernon Center,NY
>1985 PT 40
>At 01:22 PM 6/15/2006, you wrote:
>
> >Hello everyone:
> >
> >Bob's post hit the nail on the head on this subject.
> >
> > From the 80's Coaches on, a good system was built into the Bird's for
> >winterizing, and it works!
> >
> >Open the low water drain valve, open the out side spigot valve
> >usually found in the LP compartment.
> >
> >Then switch the water heater drain/fill switch to drain and switch on
> >the air blow out to supply air to the water heater/water lines/ pump
> >and so forth. Leave the air on until only air comes from the out side
> >spigot and shut the air switch to the off position. This will leave
> >some water in the filter/ice maker/and perhaps the acumulater. This
> >risidual water can be drained manually as per the manual in the blue
> >box. After that, switch the air drain switch to on one more time to
> >get any collected water from the pipes, and switch the air drain
> >switch off. Pour 1 quart of pink stuff in the P trap in the sinks and
> >shower and add some tot he holding tanks which should have been
> >drained first. Keep the pink stuff out of the water heater and you
> >really dont want it in your water filter either.
> >
> >Your done. Now then here is a fact on Birds. After blowing out the
> >water heater, there will be 2 quarts of water that remains in it.
> >This cannot be drained because the water level is below the drain of
> >the water heater. Even though this small amount of water is left in
> >the water heater, when it freezes there is expansion room in the
> >tank, so no worries there.
> >
> >All this is in your manuals.
> >
> >Ralph Fullenwider
> >RV Solutions in Oklahoma
> >
>