I dont know, may be that is where they are failing more often in motorhomes, by
being run with the battery bank turned off? or up against a battery bank being
charged via a shore wire at a higher than 13 amp? If the rectifying diodes are
that burnt it would suggest your claim. I have a battery/alt test device that
make a heat coil load I think it was about $30. from harbor freight not a very
good instrument but one more test to help make a decision. I was unaware that
running an alt without a load would cause harm to the alt
Greg of Tim&Greg
94ptca
--- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, "Donald Watson" wrote:
>
> I appreciate your posts Greg, especially since you have a pretty diversified
> experience with heavy equipment.
>
> That being said, did you really mean, "Check the output when output wire is
> disconnected from bus batteries." ??
>
> Without a battery or batteries to act as a load, I believe the rectifying
> diodes would burn up in an instant. Greg's suggestion of lifting the
> alternator output cable on both ends , checking continuity as well as
> resistance to ground is a reasonable one. I have a friend who drives over
> the road with a 60 series Detroit. He goes through alternators quicker than
> he should and I wonder if it is simply the quality of the rebuilds that is
> questionable as Greg suggested.
>
> Donn
> '76 FC33
> South Kingstown, RI
>
> From: WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com
> [mailto:WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of gregory O
> Sent: Tuesday, October 13, 2009 9:12 PM
> To: WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [WanderlodgeForum] Re: Front Alternator 8V92
>
> alternators require many working parts any one part that fails will not
> allow it to work. when a bearing goes out it still pumps amps but the heat
> can screw the windings and vr. if the prior rebuild didnt repair the bearing
> or other cause for resulting failure replacing a burnt electrical component
> will be short lived, like in your case. The other possibility is something
> is burning out the electronics and replacing the alt will only prove that
> point with a third failure.
>
> Check the output when output wire is disconnected from bus batteries. I
> would then take the alt to a good rebuilder.
>
> one other test is to remove both ends of the charge wire, insulate the
> battery end, then check for continuity with ground at the alt end. there
> should be no continuity, if there is, 'continuous path' will show a ground
> fault which will always demand amps.
>
> You can usually find a referral of a local parts re builder from a local
> salvage yard. WHen ever I am forced to buy a Pepboys reman alt or starter I
> drop it off at my favorite rebuilder in Riverside Ca. they ship
> http://riversidealternatorstarterac.com/
> Greg of Tim&Greg
> 94ptca
>
> --- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com
> , "SteveQ" wrote:
> >
> > I had the front alternator rebuilt in 2007 right after buying the coach,
> and have about 25,000 miles +/- since then. After testing it today it is
> dead again, there must be an underlying problem. Any ideas?
> >
> > Steve Quandt
> > 1993 PT40
> > Iron Mountain, MI
>
That cheap load tester is a handy device. I have a similar
one that is now probably twenty years old, but continues to be helpful with
battery diagnostics. The new ones are much more expensive, but include
microprocessors and can supposedly diagnose battery faults that primitive load
testers with resistive element cannot.
Battery selector switches used primarily in the marine market, but
also in some RVs, have positions labeled “bank 1”, “bank
2” and “both” are designed with a ‘wiper’ contact
that “makes before break”. In other words, the contactor
(wired to load as well as alternator) actually makes contact with the next
position, before relinquishing or opening contact with the previous position.
This insures that the alternator is not accidentally operated into an open
load.
I don’t think that a battery charger up against the output
side of an alternator would cause an issue as these diodes should be able to
easily handle. It’s a thought perhaps when considering that some
inverter/chargers are capable of charging currents in excess of 100 amps dc.
There is a tremendous amount of decent easily understood electrical
info available on http://bluesea.com.
The hardware Blue Sea designs/distributes is well built, reasonably priced and
most likely an upgrade from what we find in our Wanderlodge electrical system, possibly
a weak link in our otherwise ‘bullet proof’ RVs.
Donn
76 FC33
South Kingstown, RI
I dont know, may be that is where they are failing more often in motorhomes, by
being run with the battery bank turned off? or up against a battery bank being
charged via a shore wire at a higher than 13 amp? If the rectifying diodes are
that burnt it would suggest your claim. I have a battery/alt test device that
make a heat coil load I think it was about $30. from harbor freight not a very
good instrument but one more test to help make a decision. I was unaware that
running an alt without a load would cause harm to the alt
Greg of Tim&Greg
94ptca
--- In "WanderlodgeForum%40yahoogroups.com",
"Donald Watson" wrote:
>
> I appreciate your posts Greg, especially since you have a pretty
diversified
> experience with heavy equipment.
>
> That being said, did you really mean, "Check the output when output
wire is
> disconnected from bus batteries." ??
>
> Without a battery or batteries to act as a load, I believe the rectifying
> diodes would burn up in an instant. Greg's suggestion of lifting the
> alternator output cable on both ends , checking continuity as well as
> resistance to ground is a reasonable one. I have a friend who drives over
> the road with a 60 series Detroit. He goes through alternators quicker
than
> he should and I wonder if it is simply the quality of the rebuilds that is
> questionable as Greg suggested.
>
> Donn
> '76 FC33
> South Kingstown, RI
>
> From: "WanderlodgeForum%40yahoogroups.com"
> [mailto:"WanderlodgeForum%40yahoogroups.com"]
On Behalf Of gregory O
> Sent: Tuesday, October 13, 2009 9:12 PM
> To: "WanderlodgeForum%40yahoogroups.com"
> Subject: [WanderlodgeForum] Re: Front Alternator 8V92
>
> alternators require many working parts any one part that fails will not
> allow it to work. when a bearing goes out it still pumps amps but the heat
> can screw the windings and vr. if the prior rebuild didnt repair the
bearing
> or other cause for resulting failure replacing a burnt electrical
component
> will be short lived, like in your case. The other possibility is something
> is burning out the electronics and replacing the alt will only prove that
> point with a third failure.
>
> Check the output when output wire is disconnected from bus batteries. I
> would then take the alt to a good rebuilder.
>
> one other test is to remove both ends of the charge wire, insulate the
> battery end, then check for continuity with ground at the alt end. there
> should be no continuity, if there is, 'continuous path' will show a ground
> fault which will always demand amps.
>
> You can usually find a referral of a local parts re builder from a local
> salvage yard. WHen ever I am forced to buy a Pepboys reman alt or starter
I
> drop it off at my favorite rebuilder in Riverside Ca. they ship
> http://riversidealternatorstarterac.com/
> Greg of Tim&Greg
> 94ptca
>
> --- In "WanderlodgeForum%40yahoogroups.com"
> , "SteveQ"
wrote:
> >
> > I had the front alternator rebuilt in 2007 right after buying the
coach,
> and have about 25,000 miles +/- since then. After testing it today it is
> dead again, there must be an underlying problem. Any ideas?
> >
> > Steve Quandt
> > 1993 PT40
> > Iron Mountain, MI
Hi Greg:
I don't know about no load on an alternator being harmful but it is hard on an alternator to start up with a full or very heavy load on it. It is also hard on a generator to start up under a heavy load, that is one of the reasons for the delay in the auto changeover after the generator starts. Frequently starting a coach with the house batteries very week puts an immediate heavy load on the alternator and this practice will shorten the life of the alternator.
Wayne kotila
96 PT42
From: gregory O
To: WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wed, October 14, 2009 9:06:06 AM
Subject: [WanderlodgeForum] Re: Front Alternator 8V92
I dont know, may be that is where they are failing more often in motorhomes, by being run with the battery bank turned off? or up against a battery bank being charged via a shore wire at a higher than 13 amp? If the rectifying diodes are that burnt it would suggest your claim. I have a battery/alt test device that make a heat coil load I think it was about $30. from harbor freight not a very good instrument but one more test to help make a decision. I was unaware that running an alt without a load would cause harm to the alt
Greg of Tim&Greg
94ptca
--- In "WanderlodgeForum%40yahoogroups.com", "Donald Watson" wrote:
>
> I appreciate your posts Greg, especially since you have a pretty diversified
> experience with heavy equipment.
>
> That being said,
did you really mean, "Check the output when output wire is
> disconnected from bus batteries." ??
>
> Without a battery or batteries to act as a load, I believe the rectifying
> diodes would burn up in an instant. Greg's suggestion of lifting the
> alternator output cable on both ends , checking continuity as well as
> resistance to ground is a reasonable one. I have a friend who drives over
> the road with a 60 series Detroit. He goes through alternators quicker than
> he should and I wonder if it is simply the quality of the rebuilds that is
> questionable as Greg suggested.
>
> Donn
> '76 FC33
> South Kingstown, RI
>
> From: "WanderlodgeForum%40yahoogroups.com"
> [mailto:"WanderlodgeForum%40yahoogroups.com"] On Behalf Of gregory O
> Sent: Tuesday, October 13, 2009 9:12 PM
> To: "WanderlodgeForum%40yahoogroups.com"
> Subject: [WanderlodgeForum] Re: Front Alternator 8V92
>
> alternators require many working parts any one part that fails will not
> allow it to work. when a bearing goes out it still pumps amps but the heat
> can screw the windings and vr. if the prior rebuild didnt repair the bearing
> or other cause for resulting failure replacing a burnt electrical component
> will be short lived, like in your case. The other possibility is something
> is burning out the electronics and replacing the alt will only prove that
> point with a third
failure.
>
> Check the output when output wire is disconnected from bus batteries. I
> would then take the alt to a good rebuilder.
>
> one other test is to remove both ends of the charge wire, insulate the
> battery end, then check for continuity with ground at the alt end. there
> should be no continuity, if there is, 'continuous path' will show a ground
> fault which will always demand amps.
>
> You can usually find a referral of a local parts re builder from a local
> salvage yard. WHen ever I am forced to buy a Pepboys reman alt or starter I
> drop it off at my favorite rebuilder in Riverside Ca. they ship
> http://riversidealternatorstarterac.com/
> Greg of Tim&Greg
> 94ptca
>
> --- In WanderlodgeForum@
yahoogroups. com
> ups.com> , "SteveQ" wrote:
> >
> > I had the front alternator rebuilt in 2007 right after buying the coach,
> and have about 25,000 miles +/- since then. After testing it today it is
> dead again, there must be an underlying problem. Any ideas?
> >
> > Steve Quandt
> > 1993 PT40
> > Iron Mountain, MI
>
Most DC alternators can be spun up without a load with no problem
unless they are self excited. Running these without a load can result
in wild voltage swings that could damage the regulator or on external
regulator units result in several hundred volts of output which makes
them very dangerous. With a load or battery attached of some kind,
even if there is a run away voltage, it will be limited until you
notice things have gone sour. AC alternators for 120 VAC production
must never be started up with a load. The load on the unit causes
severe currents to be bourne by the regulator which will struggle to
provide a proper voltage even though the frequency is terribly low.
Many appliances can suffer excess current draw when supplied with low
frequencies and low voltages. The impedance of motors skyrockets with
even 50 cycles and will burn up many motors and electronics that are
not rated for 50/60 Hertz usage. Shutting down an AC alternator while
under load is a huge reversed no no. the same damage criteria exist
only in reverse.
--- On Wed, 10/14/09, Wayne Kotila wrote:
From: Wayne Kotila
Subject: Re: [WanderlodgeForum] Re: Front Alternator 8V92
To: WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Wednesday, October 14, 2009, 5:13 PM
Hi Greg:
I don't know about no load on an alternator being harmful but it is hard on an alternator to start up with a full or very heavy load on it. It is also hard on a generator to start up under a heavy load, that is one of the reasons for the delay in the auto changeover after the generator starts. Frequently starting a coach with the house batteries very week puts an immediate heavy load on the alternator and this practice will shorten the life of the alternator.
Wayne kotila
96 PT42
From: gregory O
To: WanderlodgeForum@ yahoogroups. com
Sent: Wed, October 14, 2009 9:06:06 AM
Subject: [WanderlodgeForum] Re: Front Alternator 8V92
I dont know, may be that is where they are failing more often in motorhomes, by being run with the battery bank turned off? or up against a battery bank being charged via a shore wire at a higher than 13 amp? If the rectifying diodes are that burnt it would suggest your claim. I have a battery/alt test device that make a heat coil load I think it was about $30. from harbor freight not a very good instrument but one more test to help make a decision. I was unaware that running an alt without a load would cause harm to the alt
Greg of Tim&Greg
94ptca
--- In WanderlodgeForum@ yahoogroups. com, "Donald Watson" wrote:
>
> I appreciate your posts Greg, especially since you have a pretty diversified
> experience with heavy equipment.
>
> That
being said,
did you really mean, "Check the output when output wire is
> disconnected from bus batteries." ??
>
> Without a battery or batteries to act as a load, I believe the rectifying
> diodes would burn up in an instant. Greg's suggestion of lifting the
> alternator output cable on both ends , checking continuity as well as
> resistance to ground is a reasonable one. I have a friend who drives over
> the road with a 60 series Detroit. He goes through alternators quicker than
> he should and I wonder if it is simply the quality of the rebuilds that is
> questionable as Greg suggested.
>
> Donn
> '76 FC33
> South Kingstown, RI
>
> From: WanderlodgeForum@ yahoogroups. com
> [mailto:WanderlodgeForum@ yahoogroups. com] On Behalf Of gregory O
> Sent: Tuesday, October 13, 2009 9:12 PM
> To: WanderlodgeForum@ yahoogroups. com
> Subject: [WanderlodgeForum] Re: Front Alternator 8V92
>
> alternators require many working parts any one part that fails will not
> allow it to work. when a bearing goes out it still pumps amps but the heat
> can screw the windings and vr. if the prior rebuild didnt repair the bearing
> or other cause for resulting failure replacing a burnt electrical component
> will be short lived, like in your case. The other possibility is something
> is burning out the electronics and
replacing the alt will only prove that
> point with a third
failure.
>
> Check the output when output wire is disconnected from bus batteries. I
> would then take the alt to a good rebuilder.
>
> one other test is to remove both ends of the charge wire, insulate the
> battery end, then check for continuity with ground at the alt end. there
> should be no continuity, if there is, 'continuous path' will show a ground
> fault which will always demand amps.
>
> You can usually find a referral of a local parts re builder from a local
> salvage yard. WHen ever I am forced to buy a Pepboys reman alt or starter I
> drop it off at my favorite rebuilder in Riverside Ca. they ship
> http://riversidealt ernatorstarterac .com/
> Greg of Tim&Greg
> 94ptca
>
> --- In WanderlodgeForum@
yahoogroups. com
> ups.com> , "SteveQ" wrote:
> >
> > I had the front alternator rebuilt in 2007 right after buying the coach,
> and have about 25,000 miles +/- since then. After testing it today it is
> dead again, there must be an underlying problem. Any ideas?
> >
> > Steve Quandt
> > 1993 PT40
> > Iron Mountain, MI
>
|
shutdown is like pulling the plug? cant see how it could hurt?
self excited would require a capacitor or something to make initial start
voltage to excite the field coils. may be constant failure of these alts would
be corrected if a device or diode was installed to require more voltage than a
minimum static magnetic field or stray remaining voltage? could it be the unique
florecent 12 v light electronics? or a batery hooked up to a cigerette light
charger? self exciting is a theory I fail to understand?
It would be interesting to learn if the folks that lose alts
;have a practice of cutting the battery currents while stored
;or if the diodes or combiners that gate the house and start banks have been
modified or prove issues also??
all goes back to the rebuilders lack of understanding or looking for the reason
why the alt on his bench failed. The same failure a mechanic committs when
he/she simply replaces a blown fuse.
Greg of Tim&Greg
94ptca
--- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, GARY MINKER wrote:
>
> Most DC alternators can be spun up without a load with no problem
> unless they are self excited. Running these without a load can result
> in wild voltage swings that could damage the regulator or on external
> regulator units result in several hundred volts of output which makes
> them very dangerous. With a load or battery attached of some kind,
> even if there is a run away voltage, it will be limited until you
> notice things have gone sour. AC alternators for 120 VAC production
> must never be started up with a load. The load on the unit causes
> severe currents to be bourne by the regulator which will struggle to
> provide a proper voltage even though the frequency is terribly low.
> Many appliances can suffer excess current draw when supplied with low
> frequencies and low voltages. The impedance of motors skyrockets with
> even 50 cycles and will burn up many motors and electronics that are
> not rated for 50/60 Hertz usage. Shutting down an AC alternator while
> under load is a huge reversed no no. the same damage criteria exist
> only in reverse.
>
> --- On Wed, 10/14/09, Wayne Kotila wrote:
>
> From: Wayne Kotila
> Subject: Re: [WanderlodgeForum] Re: Front Alternator 8V92
> To: WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com
> Date: Wednesday, October 14, 2009, 5:13 PM
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Hi Greg:
> I don't know about no load on an alternator being harmful but it is hard on an
alternator to start up with a full or very heavy load on it. It is also hard on
a generator to start up under a heavy load, that is one of the reasons for the
delay in the auto changeover after the generator starts. Frequently starting a
coach with the house batteries very week puts an immediate heavy load on the
alternator and this practice will shorten the life of the alternator.
> Wayne kotila
> 96 PT42
>
>
>
>
>
> From: gregory O
> To: WanderlodgeForum@ yahoogroups. com
> Sent: Wed, October 14, 2009 9:06:06 AM
> Subject: [WanderlodgeForum] Re: Front Alternator 8V92
>
>
>
>
> I dont know, may be that is where they are failing more often in motorhomes,
by being run with the battery bank turned off? or up against a battery bank
being charged via a shore wire at a higher than 13 amp? If the rectifying diodes
are that burnt it would suggest your claim. I have a battery/alt test device
that make a heat coil load I think it was about $30. from harbor freight not a
very good instrument but one more test to help make a decision. I was unaware
that running an alt without a load would cause harm to the alt
> Greg of Tim&Greg
> 94ptca
>
> --- In WanderlodgeForum@ yahoogroups. com, "Donald Watson" wrote:
> >
> > I appreciate your posts Greg, especially since you have a pretty diversified
> > experience with heavy equipment.
> >
> > That being said,
> did you really mean, "Check the output when output wire is
> > disconnected from bus batteries." ??
> >
> > Without a battery or batteries to act as a load, I believe the rectifying
> > diodes would burn up in an instant. Greg's suggestion of lifting the
> > alternator output cable on both ends , checking continuity as well as
> > resistance to ground is a reasonable one. I have a friend who drives over
> > the road with a 60 series Detroit. He goes through alternators quicker than
> > he should and I wonder if it is simply the quality of the rebuilds that is
> > questionable as Greg suggested.
> >
> > Donn
> > '76 FC33
> > South Kingstown, RI
> >
> > From: WanderlodgeForum@ yahoogroups. com
> > [mailto:WanderlodgeForum@ yahoogroups. com] On Behalf Of gregory O
> > Sent: Tuesday, October 13, 2009 9:12 PM
> > To: WanderlodgeForum@ yahoogroups. com
> > Subject: [WanderlodgeForum] Re: Front Alternator 8V92
> >
> > alternators require many working parts any one part that fails will not
> > allow it to work. when a bearing goes out it still pumps amps but the heat
> > can screw the windings and vr. if the prior rebuild didnt repair the bearing
> > or other cause for resulting failure replacing a burnt electrical component
> > will be short lived, like in your case. The other possibility is something
> > is burning out the electronics and replacing the alt will only prove that
> > point with a third
> failure.
> >
> > Check the output when output wire is disconnected from bus batteries. I
> > would then take the alt to a good rebuilder.
> >
> > one other test is to remove both ends of the charge wire, insulate the
> > battery end, then check for continuity with ground at the alt end. there
> > should be no continuity, if there is, 'continuous path' will show a ground
> > fault which will always demand amps.
> >
> > You can usually find a referral of a local parts re builder from a local
> > salvage yard. WHen ever I am forced to buy a Pepboys reman alt or starter I
> > drop it off at my favorite rebuilder in Riverside Ca. they ship
> > http://riversidealt ernatorstarterac .com/
> > Greg of Tim&Greg
> > 94ptca
> >
> > --- In WanderlodgeForum@
> yahoogroups. com
> > , "SteveQ" wrote:
> > >
> > > I had the front alternator rebuilt in 2007 right after buying the coach,
> > and have about 25,000 miles +/- since then. After testing it today it is
> > dead again, there must be an underlying problem. Any ideas?
> > >
> > > Steve Quandt
> > > 1993 PT40
> > > Iron Mountain, MI
> >
>
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