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KP Marsh

07-23-2009, 10:43

---
To the forum:
We have an 89 WB 40 coach that was built with an 88 DD 8V92 engine. This model has the firstmodel of DDEC I which featured a 2 part ECM and required a DDR Reader by Ragen called a "T" bone tester. This coach is also equipped with a transmission retarder that we would like to up-grade to a Jake Brake. Does anyone of the forum know whether this modification can be done on this model of DDEC or couldit be wired as a strictly electro-mechanical set-up with a switch on the dash?I would appreciate any information. We have not purchased the Jake set-up yet, just doing my research.
By the way if thereis any owner of these old DDEC units that need to borrow our tester feel free to contact me.
Ken and Patti Marsh
89 WB Towanda and our 6 cats
Full-timing currently at Carson National Fish Hatchery, Carson, WA

Curt Sprenger

07-23-2009, 16:41
Ken,
There is no upgrade to a Jake Brake from the Transmission Retarder that
I know of. The two units are independent. You use one or the other. I'm in
no way an expert here, but I believe you turn OFF the Retarder (switch)
and then use the Jake Brake. That is what I have done on our Mechanical
Detroit 8V92, and I've been in touch with an Allison dealer to confirm
this. My research tells me that you install the Jake for the DDEC, then
take the coach to a dealer for  re-program utilizing the Jake Brake and
making the ECU work properly. Hope this helps.


Curt Sprenger
1987 PT38 8V92 "MacAttack Racing"
Anaheim Hills, CA
Read all about Southwest Bluebirds and Friends (SWBB) at http://www.SOUTHWEST-BLUEBIRDS.ORG ...Then Join us.

"Host of the Annual Bluebird Quartzsite Rally"



On Thu, Jul 23, 2009 at 3:43 PM, KP Marsh <"towanda692006@yahoo.com"> wrote:
 




---
To the forum:
 
We have an 89 WB 40 coach that was built with an 88 DD 8V92 engine. This model has the first model of DDEC I which featured a 2 part ECM and required a DDR Reader by Ragen called a "T" bone tester. This coach is also equipped with a transmission retarder that we would like to up-grade to a Jake Brake. Does anyone of the forum know whether this modification can be done on this model of DDEC or could it be wired as a strictly electro-mechanical set-up with a switch on the dash?  I would appreciate any information. We have not purchased the Jake set-up yet, just doing my research.
 
By the way if there is any owner of these old DDEC units that need to borrow our tester feel free to contact me.
 
Ken and Patti Marsh
89 WB Towanda and our 6 cats
Full-timing currently at Carson National Fish Hatchery, Carson, WA 

towanda692006@...

07-24-2009, 01:19
Thanks Curt,
This confirms what I was told as well, We haven;t bought the set yet, so I think I will pass. I haven't found very many technicians who have any knowledge with the old DDEC I system. We were offered a Jake set, minus wiring for $600, which seemed worth reserching.
Thanks for your response.
Ken and Patti Marsh
89 WB40 Towanda

--- On Thu, 7/23/09, Curt Sprenger wrote:
From: Curt Sprenger
Subject: Re: [WanderlodgeForum] Installation of Jake Brake on 88 8V92 DD
To: WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Thursday, July 23, 2009, 11:41 PM



Ken,
There is no upgrade to a Jake Brake from the Transmission Retarder that I know of. The two units are independent. You use one or the other. I'm in no way an expert here, but I believe you turn OFF the Retarder (switch) and then use the Jake Brake. That is what I have done on our Mechanical Detroit 8V92, and I've been in touch with an Allison dealer to confirm this. My research tells me that you install the Jake for the DDEC, then take the coach to a dealer for re-program utilizing the Jake Brake and making the ECU work properly. Hope this helps.

Curt Sprenger
1987 PT38 8V92 "MacAttack Racing"
Anaheim Hills, CA
Read all about Southwest Bluebirds and Friends (SWBB) at http://www.SOUTHWES T-BLUEBIRDS. ORG ...Then Join us.
"Host of the Annual Bluebird Quartzsite Rally"



On Thu, Jul 23, 2009 at 3:43 PM, KP Marsh <towanda692006@ yahoo.com> wrote:


---
To the forum:
We have an 89 WB 40 coach that was built with an 88 DD 8V92 engine. This model has the firstmodel of DDEC I which featured a 2 part ECM and required a DDR Reader by Ragen called a "T" bone tester. This coach is also equipped with a transmission retarder that we would like to up-grade to a Jake Brake. Does anyone of the forum know whether this modification can be done on this model of DDEC or couldit be wired as a strictly electro-mechanical set-up with a switch on the dash?I would appreciate any information. We have not purchased the Jake set-up yet, just doing my research.
By the way if thereis any owner of these old DDEC units that need to borrow our tester feel free to contact me.
Ken and Patti Marsh
89 WB Towanda and our 6 cats
Full-timing currently at Carson National Fish Hatchery, Carson, WA

Gregory OConnor

07-25-2009, 05:39
If you want a jake on a ddec I would find out what would be the advantage of
running it with the ddec. I bet for the most part the ddec will put restrictions
on applying the jake making it idiot proof. like disabling the jake at low speed
and disabling the jake when the tps is showing the operator has a foot on the
throttle. problem with both is ;I can see where these prompts can stop you from
stopping and ;no idiot should be driving a bus.
Many onroad truckers remove the if-than-dont-apply statements from the code,
one way or another. they measure stopping force with HP. Curt do you know the
stopping force of the jake and Allison retarder? The retarder on CurtS bus is
way more powerful than that on my 94pt bus. I'm not a fan of relying on a Jake
or the Brakes for that matter but I am a fan of Jake assistance and stopping. I
am considering adding a Jake.
Greg of'Tim&Greg
94pt
free man, Horse died and sold the boat on friday.



--- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, towanda692006@... wrote:
>
>
> Thanks Curt,
>  
> This confirms what I was told as well, We haven;t bought the set yet, so I
think I will pass. I haven't found very many technicians who have any knowledge
with the old DDEC I system. We were offered a Jake set, minus wiring for $600,
which seemed worth reserching.
>  
> Thanks for your response.  
>  
> Ken and Patti Marsh
> 89 WB40 Towanda
>
> --- On Thu, 7/23/09, Curt Sprenger wrote:
>
>
> From: Curt Sprenger
> Subject: Re: [WanderlodgeForum] Installation of Jake Brake on 88 8V92 DD
> To: WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com
> Date: Thursday, July 23, 2009, 11:41 PM
>
>
>  
>
>
>
> Ken,
> There is no upgrade to a Jake Brake from the Transmission Retarder that I know
of. The two units are independent. You use one or the other. I'm in no way an
expert here, but I believe you turn OFF the Retarder (switch) and then use the
Jake Brake. That is what I have done on our Mechanical Detroit 8V92, and I've
been in touch with an Allison dealer to confirm this. My research tells me that
you install the Jake for the DDEC, then take the coach to a dealer for 
re-program utilizing the Jake Brake and making the ECU work properly. Hope this
helps.
>
> Curt Sprenger
> 1987 PT38 8V92 "MacAttack Racing"
> Anaheim Hills, CA
> Read all about Southwest Bluebirds and Friends (SWBB) at http://www.SOUTHWES
T-BLUEBIRDS. ORG ...Then Join us.
> "Host of the Annual Bluebird Quartzsite Rally"
>
>
>
> On Thu, Jul 23, 2009 at 3:43 PM, KP Marsh wrote:
>
>
>  
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ---
>
> To the forum:
>  
> We have an 89 WB 40 coach that was built with an 88 DD 8V92 engine. This model
has the first model of DDEC I which featured a 2 part ECM and required a DDR
Reader by Ragen called a "T" bone tester. This coach is also equipped with a
transmission retarder that we would like to up-grade to a Jake Brake. Does
anyone of the forum know whether this modification can be done on this model of
DDEC or could it be wired as a strictly electro-mechanical set-up with a switch
on the dash?  I would appreciate any information. We have not purchased the Jake
set-up yet, just doing my research.
>  
> By the way if there is any owner of these old DDEC units that need to borrow
our tester feel free to contact me.
>  
> Ken and Patti Marsh
> 89 WB Towanda and our 6 cats
> Full-timing currently at Carson National Fish Hatchery, Carson, WA 
>

Pete Masterson

07-25-2009, 06:21
The exhaust-type jake brake on my coach is fully integrated into the DDEC. It operates when switched on and you remove your foot from the throttle. It also activates a program with the transmission to downshift (as speeds allow) to increase the jake braking power. (I have found this aspect to be annoying, at times. I've heard of some who have had the computer reprogramed to give an alternate down shifting program with "mode on".)
In general, the jake brake, as it is set up, is quite satisfactory. It's not a crutch so much as a convenience. I always have the option to step on the service brake to slow the vehicle. The jake is at its best when holding a steady speed on a long downgrade. Since it is integrated into the system, I usually leave the enable switch in the "on" position so that the jake engages during normal slowing for a stop signal, etc. Its slowing assistance simply allows reduced pressure on the service brakes, probably extending brake lining life.
Due to the design of the S-60 engine (95 and later 42/43') the jake provides more slowing force than is possible with the 8v92 (as I understand).
I did discover one bug in the system while traveling across Texas (and I thank whomever it was that explained it to me). I was puzzled that when entering a town with a "no jake brake rule" that sometimes the system would not return to normal operation after leaving the town. But then the next day, the jake system worked as expected. It's been discovered that turning off the jake brake system, _while_ the jake is activated, causes the system to be unable to reactivate until the engine (and DDEC) is shut down and restarted. Switching the jake system off while the jake is _not_ active works as you'd expect. (So, I've learned to never turn off the jake system unless it is inactive.)
So what happened when the jake didn't respond as expected (after blundering into the 'bug')? I just pressed harder on the service brake and stopped as needed. Other than the surprise of not having the system operating when it was expected, it was no big deal. Inconvenient, perhaps, but still, not a serious issue.
Pete Masterson
'95 Blue Bird Wanderlodge WBDA 42
El Sobrante CA
"aeonix1@mac.com"
On Jul 25, 2009, at 10:39 AM, Gregory OConnor wrote:

If you want a jake on a ddec I would find out what would be the advantage of running it with the ddec. I bet for the most part the ddec will put restrictions on applying the jake making it idiot proof. like disabling the jake at low speed and disabling the jake when the tps is showing the operator has a foot on the throttle. problem with both is ;I can see where these prompts can stop you from stopping and ;no idiot should be driving a bus.
Many onroad truckers remove the if-than-dont-apply statements from the code, one way or another. they measure stopping force with HP. Curt do you know the stopping force of the jake and Allison retarder? The retarder on CurtS bus is way more powerful than that on my 94pt bus. I'm not a fan of relying on a Jake or the Brakes for that matter but I am a fan of Jake assistance and stopping. I am considering adding a Jake.
Greg of'Tim&Greg
94pt
free man, Horse died and sold the boat on friday.



--- In "WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com", towanda692006@... wrote:
Thanks Curt,
This confirms what I was told as well, We haven;t bought the set yet, so I think I will pass. I haven't found very many technicians who have any knowledge with the old DDEC I system. We were offered a Jake set, minus wiring for $600, which seemed worth reserching.
Thanks for your response.
Ken and Patti Marsh
89 WB40 Towanda
--- On Thu, 7/23/09, Curt Sprenger wrote:
From: Curt Sprenger
Subject: Re: [WanderlodgeForum] Installation of Jake Brake on 88 8V92 DD
To: "WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com"
Date: Thursday, July 23, 2009, 11:41 PM
Ken,
There is no upgrade to a Jake Brake from the Transmission Retarder that I know of. The two units are independent. You use one or the other. I'm in no way an expert here, but I believe you turn OFF the Retarder (switch) and then use the Jake Brake. That is what I have done on our Mechanical Detroit 8V92, and I've been in touch with an Allison dealer to confirm this. My research tells me that you install the Jake for the DDEC, then take the coach to a dealer for re-program utilizing the Jake Brake and making the ECU work properly. Hope this helps.
Curt Sprenger
1987 PT38 8V92 "MacAttack Racing"
Anaheim Hills, CA
Read all about Southwest Bluebirds and Friends (SWBB) at http://www.SOUTHWES T-BLUEBIRDS. ORG ...Then Join us.
"Host of the Annual Bluebird Quartzsite Rally"

dmb993@earthlink.net

07-25-2009, 08:21
Pete,

There must be a limitation in the earlier DDECs. I have DDEC 4 and am able to turn off the jake while it is active and have it resume operation by throwing the on switch (no ignition key reset required).

To eliminate the aggressive downshifts I had the DDEC programmed to preselect fifth instead of fourth. I can then downshift manually to get the desired braking effect while not over-reving the engine.

David Brady
'02 LXi, NC

Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry


From: Pete Masterson
Date: Sat, 25 Jul 2009 11:21:32 -0700
To:
Subject: Re: [WanderlodgeForum] Re: Installation of Jake Brake on 88 8V92 DD


The exhaust-type jake brake on my coach is fully integrated into the DDEC. It operates when switched on and you remove your foot from the throttle. It also activates a program with the transmission to downshift (as speeds allow) to increase the jake braking power. (I have found this aspect to be annoying, at times. I've heard of some who have had the computer reprogramed to give an alternate down shifting program with "mode on".)
In general, the jake brake, as it is set up, is quite satisfactory. It's not a crutch so much as a convenience. I always have the option to step on the service brake to slow the vehicle. The jake is at its best when holding a steady speed on a long downgrade. Since it is integrated into the system, I usually leave the enable switch in the "on" position so that the jake engages during normal slowing for a stop signal, etc. Its slowing assistance simply allows reduced pressure on the service brakes, probably extending brake lining life.
Due to the design of the S-60 engine (95 and later 42/43') the jake provides more slowing force than is possible with the 8v92 (as I understand).
I did discover one bug in the system while traveling across Texas (and I thank whomever it was that explained it to me). I was puzzled that when entering a town with a "no jake brake rule" that sometimes the system would not return to normal operation after leaving the town. But then the next day, the jake system worked as expected. It's been discovered that turning off the jake brake system, _while_ the jake is activated, causes the system to be unable to reactivate until the engine (and DDEC) is shut down and restarted. Switching the jake system off while the jake is _not_ active works as you'd expect. (So, I've learned to never turn off the jake system unless it is inactive.)
So what happened when the jake didn't respond as expected (after blundering into the 'bug')? I just pressed harder on the service brake and stopped as needed. Other than the surprise of not having the system operating when it was expected, it was no big deal. Inconvenient, perhaps, but still, not a serious issue.
Pete Masterson
'95 Blue Bird Wanderlodge WBDA 42
El Sobrante CA
"aeonix1@mac.com"
On Jul 25, 2009, at 10:39 AM, Gregory OConnor wrote:

If you want a jake on a ddec I would find out what would be the advantage of running it with the ddec. I bet for the most part the ddec will put restrictions on applying the jake making it idiot proof. like disabling the jake at low speed and disabling the jake when the tps is showing the operator has a foot on the throttle. problem with both is ;I can see where these prompts can stop you from stopping and ;no idiot should be driving a bus.
Many onroad truckers remove the if-than-dont-apply statements from the code, one way or another. they measure stopping force with HP. Curt do you know the stopping force of the jake and Allison retarder? The retarder on CurtS bus is way more powerful than that on my 94pt bus. I'm not a fan of relying on a Jake or the Brakes for that matter but I am a fan of Jake assistance and stopping. I am considering adding a Jake.
Greg of'Tim&Greg
94pt
free man, Horse died and sold the boat on friday.



--- In "WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com", towanda692006@... wrote:
Thanks Curt,
This confirms what I was told as well, We haven;t bought the set yet, so I think I will pass. I haven't found very many technicians who have any knowledge with the old DDEC I system. We were offered a Jake set, minus wiring for $600, which seemed worth reserching.
Thanks for your response.
Ken and Patti Marsh
89 WB40 Towanda
--- On Thu, 7/23/09, Curt Sprenger ...> wrote:
From: Curt Sprenger ...>
Subject: Re: [WanderlodgeForum] Installation of Jake Brake on 88 8V92 DD
To: "WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com"
Date: Thursday, July 23, 2009, 11:41 PM
Ken,
There is no upgrade to a Jake Brake from the Transmission Retarder that I know of. The two units are independent. You use one or the other. I'm in no way an expert here, but I believe you turn OFF the Retarder (switch) and then use the Jake Brake. That is what I have done on our Mechanical Detroit 8V92, and I've been in touch with an Allison dealer to confirm this. My research tells me that you install the Jake for the DDEC, then take the coach to a dealer for re-program utilizing the Jake Brake and making the ECU work properly. Hope this helps.
Curt Sprenger
1987 PT38 8V92 "MacAttack Racing"
Anaheim Hills, CA
Read all about Southwest Bluebirds and Friends (SWBB) at http://www.SOUTHWES T-BLUEBIRDS. ORG ...Then Join us.
"Host of the Annual Bluebird Quartzsite Rally"

Pete Masterson

07-25-2009, 10:51
Yes -- the bug was fixed after a year or two. There's another bug (with a work around installed during a recall) where the "medium" jake brake ssetting didn't work right. If you poke around in the front (main) power center, you will observe that the "medium" setting is wired out and cross wired to the "low" setting. (So putting the switch in low or medium results in low.) As designed, the jake is supposed to activate 2, 4, or all 6 cylinders. As it works, it either activates 2 or all 6 cylinders.
When I had CCW put a scanner on the DDEC, to check the jake brake operation, they got an error message that essentially said, "ask Detroit Diesel"...
With some research I was able to find out about the two bugs and that the DDEC is partially blocked off in that area on the '95s and (I understand) on the 96s (some, anyway). I suppose that the DDEC could be upgraded -- but that would likely be a rather expensive option. Once you're aware of the bug(s), it's easy enough to live with.
As for the reprograming -- I believe you're who I was thinking of when I mentioned it. As it comes from the factory, the DDEC (or the Allison computer) immediately targets 4th gear, downshifting to 5th, then to 4th as soon as revs drop below the maximum value.
I would prefer to hold the system in 5th gear on some grades, where conditions permit a descending speed of 50 mph or so... but the darn thing will drop to 4th the first chance it gets. This forces me to hold a speed of 55 mph or so, to keep it from dropping into 4th.As David found, the downshifts occur "aggressively" so it's somewhat of a bother to keep things in a steady state at higher speeds.
I'd probably would have had the control reprogramed by now, if I had convenient access to a DD/Allison service center.
Pete Masterson
'95 Blue Bird Wanderlodge WBDA 42
El Sobrante CA
"aeonix1@mac.com"
On Jul 25, 2009, at 1:21 PM, "dmb993@earthlink.net" wrote:


Pete,

There must be a limitation in the earlier DDECs. I have DDEC 4 and am able to turn off the jake while it is active and have it resume operation by throwing the on switch (no ignition key reset required).

To eliminate the aggressive downshifts I had the DDEC programmed to preselect fifth instead of fourth. I can then downshift manually to get the desired braking effect while not over-reving the engine.

David Brady
'02 LXi, NC

Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry


From: Pete Masterson
Date: Sat, 25 Jul 2009 11:21:32 -0700
To: <"WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com">
Subject: Re: [WanderlodgeForum] Re: Installation of Jake Brake on 88 8V92 DD


The exhaust-type jake brake on my coach is fully integrated into the DDEC. It operates when switched on and you remove your foot from the throttle. It also activates a program with the transmission to downshift (as speeds allow) to increase the jake braking power. (I have found this aspect to be annoying, at times. I've heard of some who have had the computer reprogramed to give an alternate down shifting program with "mode on".)
In general, the jake brake, as it is set up, is quite satisfactory. It's not a crutch so much as a convenience. I always have the option to step on the service brake to slow the vehicle. The jake is at its best when holding a steady speed on a long downgrade. Since it is integrated into the system, I usually leave the enable switch in the "on" position so that the jake engages during normal slowing for a stop signal, etc. Its slowing assistance simply allows reduced pressure on the service brakes, probably extending brake lining life.
Due to the design of the S-60 engine (95 and later 42/43') the jake provides more slowing force than is possible with the 8v92 (as I understand).
I did discover one bug in the system while traveling across Texas (and I thank whomever it was that explained it to me). I was puzzled that when entering a town with a "no jake brake rule" that sometimes the system would not return to normal operation after leaving the town. But then the next day, the jake system worked as expected. It's been discovered that turning off the jake brake system, _while_ the jake is activated, causes the system to be unable to reactivate until the engine (and DDEC) is shut down and restarted. Switching the jake system off while the jake is _not_ active works as you'd expect. (So, I've learned to never turn off the jake system unless it is inactive.)
So what happened when the jake didn't respond as expected (after blundering into the 'bug')? I just pressed harder on the service brake and stopped as needed. Other than the surprise of not having the system operating when it was expected, it was no big deal. Inconvenient, perhaps, but still, not a serious issue.
Pete Masterson
'95 Blue Bird Wanderlodge WBDA 42
El Sobrante CA
"aeonix1@mac.com"
On Jul 25, 2009, at 10:39 AM, Gregory OConnor wrote:

If you want a jake on a ddec I would find out what would be the advantage of running it with the ddec. I bet for the most part the ddec will put restrictions on applying the jake making it idiot proof. like disabling the jake at low speed and disabling the jake when the tps is showing the operator has a foot on the throttle. problem with both is ;I can see where these prompts can stop you from stopping and ;no idiot should be driving a bus.
Many onroad truckers remove the if-than-dont-apply statements from the code, one way or another. they measure stopping force with HP. Curt do you know the stopping force of the jake and Allison retarder? The retarder on CurtS bus is way more powerful than that on my 94pt bus. I'm not a fan of relying on a Jake or the Brakes for that matter but I am a fan of Jake assistance and stopping. I am considering adding a Jake.
Greg of'Tim&Greg
94pt
free man, Horse died and sold the boat on friday.



--- In"WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com", towanda692006@.. wrote:
Thanks Curt,
This confirms what I was told as well, We haven;t bought the set yet, so I think I will pass. I haven't found very many technicians who have any knowledge with the old DDEC I system. We were offered a Jake set, minus wiring for $600, which seemed worth reserching.
Thanks for your response.
Ken and Patti Marsh
89 WB40 Towanda
--- On Thu, 7/23/09, Curt Sprenger ...> wrote:
From: Curt Sprenger ...>
Subject: Re: [WanderlodgeForum] Installation of Jake Brake on 88 8V92 DD
To:"WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com"
Date: Thursday, July 23, 2009, 11:41 PM
Ken,
There is no upgrade to a Jake Brake from the Transmission Retarder that I know of. The two units are independent. You use one or the other. I'm in no way an expert here, but I believe you turn OFF the Retarder (switch) and then use the Jake Brake. That is what I have done on our Mechanical Detroit 8V92, and I've been in touch with an Allison dealer to confirm this. My research tells me that you install the Jake for the DDEC, then take the coach to a dealer for re-program utilizing the Jake Brake and making the ECU work properly. Hope this helps.
Curt Sprenger
1987 PT38 8V92 "MacAttack Racing"
Anaheim Hills, CA
Read all about Southwest Bluebirds and Friends (SWBB) athttp://www.SOUTHWEST-BLUEBIRDS. ORG ...Then Join us.
"Host of the Annual Bluebird Quartzsite Rally"


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