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Ross

03-18-2009, 06:21
Copy and paste please . Couldn't get "link" to work.


http://www.rvinews.com/News/tabid/16941/.../3623\
/Blue-Birds-luxury-motorhome-division-faces-lawsuits.aspx

Ross
2006 450 LXi

Dan Williams

03-18-2009, 06:41

Ross, Can you tell me what is the load
limit on the front axle?

Dan Williams 88wb38 Jackson, MS


From:
WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Ross

Sent: Wednesday, March 18, 2009
12:22 PM

To:
WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com

Subject: [WanderlodgeForum]
overweight -1st Press release

Leroy Eckert

03-18-2009, 07:16
Yours is probably around 14,000. For instance, mine is 14,600. You can find it on the data plate most likely above the driver hidden on the overhead. I am not overweight on any axle when completely full of everything my wife wants in the bus, full fuel and full water. I have plenty of variance.
Leroy Eckert
1990 WB-40 Smoke N Mirrors
Dahlonega, GA

--- On Wed, 3/18/09, Dan Williams wrote:
From: Dan Williams
Subject: RE: [WanderlodgeForum] overweight -1st Press release
To: WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Wednesday, March 18, 2009, 1:41 PM




Ross, Can you tell me what is the load
limit on the front axle?

Dan Williams 88wb38 Jackson, MS


From:
WanderlodgeForum@ yahoogroups. com [mailto:Wanderlodge Forum@yahoogroup s.com] On Behalf Of Ross

Sent: Wednesday, March 18, 2009
12:22 PM

To:
WanderlodgeForum@ yahoogroups. com

Subject: [WanderlodgeForum]
overweight -1st Press release

Pete Masterson

03-18-2009, 09:20
The overweight front axle infects the LXi (and probably LX) starting in 2004 or so... These coaches were built by Blue Bird before CCW bought the company. The recent bankruptcy/liquidation of BB Coachworks probably inspired the need to file the lawsuit(s). As I understand it, a recall was issued on the coaches with the problem. No doubt, CCW has contractual language as part of their BB purchase that protects them from the liability for this problem (shifting it to Cerberus), but the usual course is to sue the current owner of the company.
It is certainly a warning to all of us to weigh our coaches axle by axle. When I did, I was surprised that the axle weights were somewhat above the weights suggested by the tire inflation guide located and visible in the street side front cargo compartment. Using the axle loadings (and allowing for a modest side to side variance) based on actual scale weights, I determined that I needed to inflate my tires to 115-F, 120-D, 120-T* to have sufficient rated weight carrying capacity for the tires. The axles were all under their rated weights (sufficiently) to allow for variations in loading that normally occurs, but (due to the side to side variation) the tires were actually somewhat closer to their limit on one side than I had expected. The "suggested" inflation does give a slightly softer ride.
*Based on the numbers, I probably could drop the tag down to 115 psi, but I may as well give the tires the pressure to handle any transient higher loads caused by the dynamics of movement. I don't notice any particular difference between 115 and 120 on the tag axle in ride quality -- since passengers sit in front of the front axle, most of the ride perception is based on that axle's tire inflation.
I've subsequently heard that due tovagariescaused by the air suspension that side to side weights may not be fully reliable even though the total axle weight may be correct. Still, it suggests that during movement, the actual weight carried by one side or the other might be rather higher than the combined weight suggests.
When packed, loaded, and filled with fluids and passengers, my coach weighs just under 48,000 lbs, leaving it about 900+ lbs under the GVWR. I don't have the weights by axle handy right now, but each axle was comfortably below its maximum weight.
I think it's wise for all Wanderlodge owners to physically weigh their 'bird axle by axle, and if possible, wheel by wheel, to assess the properties of their coach soinadvertentoverloading can be avoided.
Pete Masterson
'95 Blue Bird Wanderlodge WBDA 42 (For Sale)
El Sobrante CA
"aeonix1@mac.com"
On Mar 18, 2009, at 11:16 AM, Leroy Eckert wrote:

Yours is probably around 14,000. For instance, mine is 14,600. You can find it on the data plate most likely above the driver hidden on the overhead. I am not overweight on any axle when completely full of everything my wife wants in the bus, full fuel and full water. I have plenty of variance.
Leroy Eckert
1990 WB-40 Smoke N Mirrors
Dahlonega, GA

--- OnWed, 3/18/09, Dan Williams<"danusa@comcast.net">wrote:

Ross, Can you tell me what is the load limit on the front axle?

Dan Williams 88wb38 Jackson, MS


From:WanderlodgeForum@ yahoogroups. com ["Wanderlodge"Forum@yahoogroup s.com]On Behalf OfRoss
Sent:Wednesday, March 18, 2009 12:22 PM
To:WanderlodgeForum@ yahoogroups. com
Subject:[WanderlodgeForum] overweight -1st Press release




p_a_lazar

03-18-2009, 09:33
Pete, I'm rather surprised at your tire pressure. I run:
Front 100
Drive 105
Tag 105

My tires are Michelin XZA2 315's and the pressure I run is 10 lbs over what
Michelin recommends, but I drive fast and I like being mentally secure. I check
my tire temps often and they run cool.

Having had my coach weighed, all axles, each tire (not inside dual) and my
weight as I usually travel is 52,000 lbs. I travel with full water and start
with full fuel. My data plate says GVW is 48,000 but when I called Bennie right
after buying mine and having it weighed, he responded "We know about the plate
being wrong, disregard the data plate". That was about 70,000 miles ago and no
problems in that regard.

Paul
97wb43


--- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, Pete Masterson wrote:
>
> The overweight front axle infects the LXi (and probably LX) starting

Don Bradner

03-18-2009, 09:49
I agree with the need to weigh each axle and run the tires accordingly.

There is a problem, though, with the numbers presented. There is zero chance
that a coach would need 12R tires inflated to 115/120 across all axles when the
GVW is 48000! Numbers need to be looked at again.

Tire inflation guides say this about 12R tires:

Single tires at 115 carry 7130 and at 120 7390

Duals at 115 carry 13050 a pair, and at 120 13560 per pair

So front 115, drivers 120, tag 115 would be:
7130
7130
13560
13560
7130
7130

That would be a GVW of 55640!!!

The tag is probably only around 10K, which would be covered at 75 PSI, although
I don't like to run them that low. 85 PSI will handle the tag at over 11K.

22K drivers are handled fine at 90 PSI.

The steer tires do need 115 to handle 14K.

I'm going to be replacing my steers in the next few days with 315/80 which can
handle 14K at 105 PSI

Don Bradner
90 PT40 "Blue Thunder"
My location: http://www.bbirdmaps.com/user2.cfm?user=1

On 3/18/2009 at 1:20 PM Pete Masterson wrote:

>The overweight front axle infects the LXi (and probably LX) starting
>in 2004 or so... These coaches were built by Blue Bird before CCW
>bought the company. The recent bankruptcy/liquidation of BB Coachworks
>probably inspired the need to file the lawsuit(s). As I understand it,
>a recall was issued on the coaches with the problem. No doubt, CCW has
>contractual language as part of their BB purchase that protects them
>from the liability for this problem (shifting it to Cerberus), but the
>usual course is to sue the current owner of the company.
>
>It is certainly a warning to all of us to weigh our coaches axle by
>axle. When I did, I was surprised that the axle weights were somewhat
>above the weights suggested by the tire inflation guide located and
>visible in the street side front cargo compartment. Using the axle
>loadings (and allowing for a modest side to side variance) based on
>actual scale weights, I determined that I needed to inflate my tires
>to 115-F, 120-D, 120-T* to have sufficient rated weight carrying
>capacity for the tires. The axles were all under their rated weights
>(sufficiently) to allow for variations in loading that normally
>occurs, but (due to the side to side variation) the tires were
>actually somewhat closer to their limit on one side than I had
>expected. The "suggested" inflation does give a slightly softer ride.
>
>*Based on the numbers, I probably could drop the tag down to 115 psi,
>but I may as well give the tires the pressure to handle any transient
>higher loads caused by the dynamics of movement. I don't notice any
>particular difference between 115 and 120 on the tag axle in ride
>quality -- since passengers sit in front of the front axle, most of
>the ride perception is based on that axle's tire inflation.
>
>I've subsequently heard that due to vagaries caused by the air
>suspension that side to side weights may not be fully reliable even
>though the total axle weight may be correct. Still, it suggests that
>during movement, the actual weight carried by one side or the other
>might be rather higher than the combined weight suggests.
>
>When packed, loaded, and filled with fluids and passengers, my coach
>weighs just under 48,000 lbs, leaving it about 900+ lbs under the
>GVWR. I don't have the weights by axle handy right now, but each axle
>was comfortably below its maximum weight.
>
>I think it's wise for all Wanderlodge owners to physically weigh their
>'bird axle by axle, and if possible, wheel by wheel, to assess the
>properties of their coach so inadvertent overloading can be avoided.
>
>Pete Masterson
>'95 Blue Bird Wanderlodge WBDA 42 (For Sale)
><http://www.aeonix.biz/BBforsale.html>
>El Sobrante CA
>aeonix1@...
>
>
>
>
>On Mar 18, 2009, at 11:16 AM, Leroy Eckert wrote:
>
>> Yours is probably around 14,000. For instance, mine is 14,600. You
>> can find it on the data plate most likely above the driver hidden on
>> the overhead. I am not overweight on any axle when completely full
>> of everything my wife wants in the bus, full fuel and full water. I
>> have plenty of variance.
>> Leroy Eckert
>> 1990 WB-40 Smoke N Mirrors
>> Dahlonega, GA
>>
>> --- On Wed, 3/18/09, Dan Williams wrote:
>>
>> Ross, Can you tell me what is the load limit on the front axle?
>>
>> Dan Williams 88wb38 Jackson, MS
>>
>>
>> From: WanderlodgeForum@ yahoogroups. com [mailto:Wanderlodge
>> Forum@yahoogroup s.com] On Behalf Of Ross
>> Sent: Wednesday, March 18, 2009 12:22 PM
>> To: WanderlodgeForum@ yahoogroups. com
>> Subject: [WanderlodgeForum] overweight -1st Press release
>>
>>
>> Copy and paste please . Couldn't get "link" to work.
>>
>> http://www.rvinews. com/News/ tabid/16941/ ctl/ArticleView/ mid/
>> 38805/ articleId/ 3623/Blue- Birds-luxury- motorhome- division-
>> faces-lawsuits. aspx
>>
>> Ross
>> 2006 450 LXi
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>

Pete Masterson

03-18-2009, 10:13
The 315s have a higher per-tire weight capacity than the 12R22.5s I run. That would account for the difference. If I were to convert to 315, I could probably lower my pressure. (There are some concerns about clearance between the duals when converting from 12Rs to 315s.)
The data plate is "legally binding" so a verbal assurance from Bennie has no real impact. If you were to have an accident due to "overloading" then BB would have no legal responsibility since the manufacturer's plate has a lower weight rating.
I note, however, that the sum of the axle ratings on my coach total (something like) 52,000 lbs -- but the official GVWR is 48,900 lbs. The difference is based on the manufacturer's evaluation of the system as a whole.
In reality, the axle and suspension system has a pretty decent safety factor beyond the rated weights. It's unlikely that a weight related failure would occur to the axles or air bags unless the loading was perhaps 30 or 50% above the rated value. Tires are the one major component that you have to "believe" the manufacturer's limits -- and the one death that occurred in a 2007 (as I recall -- I met the owners a few weeks before his accident at a SWBB rally in Buelton, CA) was due to a front axle tire blowing out, followed by an excursion from the highway ending in contact with a tree. The driver died shortly after the collision, his wife, in the bathroom at the time, was not seriously injured. Her not being in the passenger seat may have saved her life.
From what I've read about the 'recall' coaches -- with suggested 130* psi for the front tires post-recall -- indicates that the tires are very near their maximum load rating and are therefore the 'weak link' in the equation.
*Most heavy duty tires have a 120 psi maximum -- as do the Alcoa wheels on my coach (according to the data stamped into the wheel).
Pete Masterson
'95 Blue Bird Wanderlodge WBDA 42 (For Sale)
El Sobrante CA
"aeonix1@mac.com"
On Mar 18, 2009, at 1:33 PM, p_a_lazar wrote:

Pete, I'm rather surprised at your tire pressure. I run:
Front 100
Drive 105
Tag 105

My tires are Michelin XZA2 315's and the pressure I run is 10 lbs over what Michelin recommends, but I drive fast and I like being mentally secure. I check my tire temps often and they run cool.

Having had my coach weighed, all axles, each tire (not inside dual) and my weight as I usually travel is 52,000 lbs. I travel with full water and start with full fuel. My data plate says GVW is 48,000 but when I called Bennie right after buying mine and having it weighed, he responded "We know about the plate being wrong, disregard the data plate". That was about 70,000 miles ago and no problems in that regard.

Paul
97wb43


--- In "WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com", Pete Masterson wrote:
The overweight front axle infects the LXi (and probably LX) starting



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Pete Masterson

03-18-2009, 10:19
The individual tires showed the duals on the curb side carrying 7700 lbs more than the street side. That is what put the pressure up to 120 on the drive axle. I've subsequently heard that the effects of the air suspension can cause mis-readings in the side-to-side loading -- but I haven't reweighed the coach (yet) to see if this is true. There is nothing in the handling of my coach (or in the way it sits at rest) to cause me to believe that this significant variation actually exists. But without being able to verify it, I must assume it to be correct.
I used the tire inflation guide for the specific Toyo tires mounted on my coach.
Pete Masterson
'95 Blue Bird Wanderlodge WBDA 42 (For Sale)
El Sobrante CA
"aeonix1@mac.com"
On Mar 18, 2009, at 1:49 PM, Don Bradner wrote:

I agree with the need to weigh each axle and run the tires accordingly.

There is a problem, though, with the numbers presented. There is zero chance that a coach would need 12R tires inflated to 115/120 across all axles when the GVW is 48000! Numbers need to be looked at again.

Tire inflation guides say this about 12R tires:

Single tires at 115 carry 7130 and at 120 7390

Duals at 115 carry 13050 a pair, and at 120 13560 per pair

So front 115, drivers 120, tag 115 would be:
7130
7130
13560
13560
7130
7130

That would be a GVW of 55640!!!

The tag is probably only around 10K, which would be covered at 75 PSI, although I don't like to run them that low. 85 PSI will handle the tag at over 11K.

22K drivers are handled fine at 90 PSI.

The steer tires do need 115 to handle 14K.

I'm going to be replacing my steers in the next few days with 315/80 which can handle 14K at 105 PSI

Don Bradner
90 PT40 "Blue Thunder"
My location: www.bbirdmaps.com/user2.cfm?user=1

On 3/18/2009 at 1:20 PM Pete Masterson wrote:

The overweight front axle infects the LXi (and probably LX) starting
in 2004 or so... These coaches were built by Blue Bird before CCW
bought the company. The recent bankruptcy/liquidation of BB Coachworks
probably inspired the need to file the lawsuit(s). As I understand it,
a recall was issued on the coaches with the problem. No doubt, CCW has
contractual language as part of their BB purchase that protects them
from the liability for this problem (shifting it to Cerberus), but the
usual course is to sue the current owner of the company.
It is certainly a warning to all of us to weigh our coaches axle by
axle. When I did, I was surprised that the axle weights were somewhat
above the weights suggested by the tire inflation guide located and
visible in the street side front cargo compartment. Using the axle
loadings (and allowing for a modest side to side variance) based on
actual scale weights, I determined that I needed to inflate my tires
to 115-F, 120-D, 120-T* to have sufficient rated weight carrying
capacity for the tires. The axles were all under their rated weights
(sufficiently) to allow for variations in loading that normally
occurs, but (due to the side to side variation) the tires were
actually somewhat closer to their limit on one side than I had
expected. The "suggested" inflation does give a slightly softer ride.
*Based on the numbers, I probably could drop the tag down to 115 psi,
but I may as well give the tires the pressure to handle any transient
higher loads caused by the dynamics of movement. I don't notice any
particular difference between 115 and 120 on the tag axle in ride
quality -- since passengers sit in front of the front axle, most of
the ride perception is based on that axle's tire inflation.
I've subsequently heard that due to vagaries caused by the air
suspension that side to side weights may not be fully reliable even
though the total axle weight may be correct. Still, it suggests that
during movement, the actual weight carried by one side or the other
might be rather higher than the combined weight suggests.
When packed, loaded, and filled with fluids and passengers, my coach
weighs just under 48,000 lbs, leaving it about 900+ lbs under the
GVWR. I don't have the weights by axle handy right now, but each axle
was comfortably below its maximum weight.
I think it's wise for all Wanderlodge owners to physically weigh their
'bird axle by axle, and if possible, wheel by wheel, to assess the
properties of their coach so inadvertent overloading can be avoided.
Pete Masterson
'95 Blue Bird Wanderlodge WBDA 42 (For Sale)
<http://www.aeonix.biz/BBforsale.html>
El Sobrante CA
"aeonix1@mac.com"
On Mar 18, 2009, at 11:16 AM, Leroy Eckert wrote:
Yours is probably around 14,000. For instance, mine is 14,600. You
can find it on the data plate most likely above the driver hidden on
the overhead. I am not overweight on any axle when completely full
of everything my wife wants in the bus, full fuel and full water. I
have plenty of variance.
Leroy Eckert
1990 WB-40 Smoke N Mirrors
Dahlonega, GA
--- On Wed, 3/18/09, Dan Williams <"danusa@comcast.net"> wrote:
Ross, Can you tell me what is the load limit on the front axle?
Dan Williams 88wb38 Jackson, MS
From: WanderlodgeForum@ yahoogroups. com ["Wanderlodge"
Forum@yahoogroup s.com] On Behalf Of Ross
Sent: Wednesday, March 18, 2009 12:22 PM
To: WanderlodgeForum@ yahoogroups. com
Subject: [WanderlodgeForum] overweight -1st Press release
Copy and paste please . Couldn't get "link" to work.
http://www.rvinews. com/News/ tabid/16941/ ctl/ArticleView/ mid/
38805/ articleId/ 3623/Blue- Birds-luxury- motorhome- division-
faces-lawsuits. aspx
Ross
2006 450 LXi




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David Brady

03-18-2009, 11:26
Let's be clear that the law suit names the 450 LXi, and not the
1998 to 2003 LXi or LX. As far as I know, there was no 450 LX.

David Brady
'02 LXi, NC


-----Original Message-----

From: Pete Masterson

Sent: Mar 18, 2009 4:20 PM

To: WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com

Subject: Re: [WanderlodgeForum] overweight -1st Press release











The overweight front axle infects the LXi (and probably LX) starting in 2004 or so... These coaches were built by Blue Bird before CCW bought the company. The recent bankruptcy/liquidation of BB Coachworks probably inspired the need to file the lawsuit(s). As I understand it, a recall was issued on the coaches with the problem. No doubt, CCW has contractual language as part of their BB purchase that protects them from the liability for this problem (shifting it to Cerberus), but the usual course is to sue the current owner of the company.









david brady

03-18-2009, 12:42

Don,



The Michelin XZA2 Energy can handle:



13880# at 95 psi,

14380# at 100psi, and

14880# at 105psi



You should be able to back your 315 steer tires down from

105. I run 100psi and I do notice a difference in 5 psi.



David Brady

'02 LXi, NC



Don Bradner wrote:


I agree with the need to weigh each axle and run the tires
accordingly.



There is a problem, though, with the numbers presented. There is zero
chance that a coach would need 12R tires inflated to 115/120 across all
axles when the GVW is 48000! Numbers need to be looked at again.



Tire inflation guides say this about 12R tires:



Single tires at 115 carry 7130 and at 120 7390



Duals at 115 carry 13050 a pair, and at 120 13560 per pair



So front 115, drivers 120, tag 115 would be:

7130

7130

13560

13560

7130

7130



That would be a GVW of 55640!!!



The tag is probably only around 10K, which would be covered at 75 PSI,
although I don't like to run them that low. 85 PSI will handle the tag
at over 11K.



22K drivers are handled fine at 90 PSI.



The steer tires do need 115 to handle 14K.



I'm going to be replacing my steers in the next few days with 315/80
which can handle 14K at 105 PSI



Don Bradner

90 PT40 "Blue Thunder"

My location: www.bbirdmaps.com/user2.cfm?user=1



On 3/18/2009 at 1:20 PM Pete Masterson wrote:



>The overweight front axle infects the LXi (and probably LX)
starting

>in 2004 or so... These coaches were built by Blue Bird before CCW

>bought the company. The recent bankruptcy/liquidation of BB
Coachworks

>probably inspired the need to file the lawsuit(s). As I understand
it,

>a recall was issued on the coaches with the problem. No doubt, CCW
has

>contractual language as part of their BB purchase that protects
them

>from the liability for this problem (shifting it to Cerberus), but
the

>usual course is to sue the current owner of the company.

>

>It is certainly a warning to all of us to weigh our coaches axle by


>axle. When I did, I was surprised that the axle weights were
somewhat

>above the weights suggested by the tire inflation guide located and


>visible in the street side front cargo compartment. Using the axle

>loadings (and allowing for a modest side to side variance) based on


>actual scale weights, I determined that I needed to inflate my
tires

>to 115-F, 120-D, 120-T* to have sufficient rated weight carrying

>capacity for the tires. The axles were all under their rated
weights

>(sufficiently) to allow for variations in loading that normally

>occurs, but (due to the side to side variation) the tires were

>actually somewhat closer to their limit on one side than I had

>expected. The "suggested" inflation does give a slightly softer
ride.

>

>*Based on the numbers, I probably could drop the tag down to 115
psi,

>but I may as well give the tires the pressure to handle any
transient

>higher loads caused by the dynamics of movement. I don't notice any


>particular difference between 115 and 120 on the tag axle in ride

>quality -- since passengers sit in front of the front axle, most of


>the ride perception is based on that axle's tire inflation.

>

>I've subsequently heard that due to vagaries caused by the air

>suspension that side to side weights may not be fully reliable even


>though the total axle weight may be correct. Still, it suggests
that

>during movement, the actual weight carried by one side or the other


>might be rather higher than the combined weight suggests.

>

>When packed, loaded, and filled with fluids and passengers, my
coach

>weighs just under 48,000 lbs, leaving it about 900+ lbs under the

>GVWR. I don't have the weights by axle handy right now, but each
axle

>was comfortably below its maximum weight.

>

>I think it's wise for all Wanderlodge owners to physically weigh
their

>'bird axle by axle, and if possible, wheel by wheel, to assess the

>properties of their coach so inadvertent overloading can be avoided.

>

>Pete Masterson

>'95 Blue Bird Wanderlodge WBDA 42 (For Sale)

><http://www.aeonix.biz/BBforsale.html>

>El Sobrante CA

>"aeonix1%40mac.com"

>

>

>

>

>On Mar 18, 2009, at 11:16 AM, Leroy Eckert wrote:

>

>> Yours is probably around 14,000. For instance, mine is 14,600.
You

>> can find it on the data plate most likely above the driver
hidden on

>> the overhead. I am not overweight on any axle when completely
full

>> of everything my wife wants in the bus, full fuel and full
water. I

>> have plenty of variance.

>> Leroy Eckert

>> 1990 WB-40 Smoke N Mirrors

>> Dahlonega, GA

>>

>> --- On Wed, 3/18/09, Dan Williams <"danusa%40comcast.net">
wrote:

>>

>> Ross, Can you tell me what is the load limit on the front axle?

>>

>> Dan Williams 88wb38 Jackson, MS

>>

>>

>> From: WanderlodgeForum@ yahoogroups. com ["Wanderlodge"

>> Forum@yahoogroup s.com] On Behalf Of Ross

>> Sent: Wednesday, March 18, 2009 12:22 PM

>> To: WanderlodgeForum@ yahoogroups. com

>> Subject: [WanderlodgeForum] overweight -1st Press release

>>

>>

>> Copy and paste please . Couldn't get "link" to work.

>>

>> http://www.rvinews.
com/News/ tabid/16941/ ctl/ArticleView/ mid/

>> 38805/ articleId/ 3623/Blue- Birds-luxury- motorhome-
division-

>> faces-lawsuits. aspx

>>

>> Ross

>> 2006 450 LXi

>>

>>

>>

>>

>>





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