Hello everyone;
Electrical systems in any venue, to many, is confusing and it does not have
to be. With just a few simple rules, one can do a systems check no matter
if it is a 12vdc/24vdc or an 110vac system.
The words, what? where?, how? and why? come to mind as the very basic start
to finding a problem with systematic troubleshooting.
What? equates to, What is the real problem? (does not mean what the problem
appears to be.)
Where? equates to the physical location of items along a "path" in a given
system.
How? equates to how does it or is supposed to work?
Why? (remember when Dad used to say "there is no such word as why." The why
equates to why did it happen in the first place.
It is important to try to learn how a system is designed to work or the
right way to say this is "know the sequence of operation." If you know how
it is supposed to work then you are ready to start trying to; "recognize"
"localize" and "isolate" a problem.
Ok lets pick a simple system; 12vdc fan. Problem, fan does not run. Ok so
now we know it is a fan not coming on, so the problem is "recognized." So
what do we really know about "where it is." A switch on a dash, the fan is
located behind a panel near the co pilots feet, but is there more in that
system besides a switch and fan motor? Could there be a "relay" in line
between the switch and fan? Could there be a circuit breaker or fuse,
between the switch and fan motor? All are valid questions and can be
answered with a "sequence" of operation.
"Sequence" of operation for the system above; 1.it is a 12vdc system so
from the system circuit breaker, 12vdc is supplied to a switch and from the
switch to the coil of a 12vdc relay then 12vdc passes through the contacts
of the relay to the fan motor and the fan motor runs.
Now we know the "how" it works, we can start to "localize" the problem.
Starting at the circuit break we are going to check for 12vdc to be sure
the switch is in fact getting power. Yes voltage is present. Then go to the
switch and check for 12vdc, yes voltage is present on one side, then switch
the switch to the run position and check for voltage. It is found that
12vdc is present on the out put side of the switch. Next stop is the relay
coil, check for 12vdc at the coil of the relay, yes 12vdc is resent, then
check the out put side of the relay, no voltage found, hmmm, interesting,
now it is time to find out how the relay works, 12vdc goes to the coil of
the relay then passes through the coil to ground and the relay energizes
and the contacts are changed in state for open to closed, but the 12vdc
power source is from some where else going to the 12vdc fan motor and not
the switch on the dash. Now one must check the voltage patch the flow
through the relay to the 12vdc fan motor, and find the "why" it is not
present. So we have isolated the part of the 12vdc circuit that is not
working to turn on the fan with the switch. Checking the "source" circuit
breaker, it is found not to have 12vdc present. So the circuit breaker is
the bad part, it must be replaced. Now switch on the dash switch and the
fan motor runs. Great! you have fixed the problem, or have you? Did we look
into the "why" the circuit breaker went bad? This part of trouble shooting
is not always well defined and in fact may not be found. So that brings up
the question, what must happen to make a circuit breaker fail? Lose
connections are a cause. Bad ground is a cause, age of the part will
contribute to the cause of failure.
As you can see there can be several steps and items in a system even one as
simple as this one. Trouble shooting can be VERY time consuming, but it has
to be done to make a system work. Once you have been through a few
troubleshooting procedures like this, you learn some short cuts here and
there that helps to "cut" the time factor down a bit.
Also a thing to remember. Nothing is set in concrete when trying to find
out and repair what does not work. What I am trying to do here is show a
process that is practical, saves time and effort and cuts the cost of a repair.
Let's not throw money at something in hopes that is will make it run. You
can sure go through allot of money doing that and still not find the
problem let alone fix it. So with a few trouble shooting steps we have
spent $3.00 on a part to make the system run, instead of spending $225.00
in parts like new switch? new fan motor, new relay and so forth. Yes it has
cost the time to troubleshoot the system but is still cheaper on a repair
bill than throwing money at some thing.
Will stop here for this first post and wait a few days and answer any
questions anyone may have.
Ues I know it is a VERY simple system noted above, but there are a large
percentage of people that do not have any idea what or how. Please keep
that in mind when posting on this first post.
Safe travels,
Ralph and Charolette Fullenwider
84FC35 "Ruff Diamond"
Duncan, Oklahoma
Ralph, thank you for posting this information. Since this is your baby, I'll still want you to work on my stuff. Merry Christmas, Ernie and Brenda Ekberg 83PT40 in sunny Texas
derlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wed, 24 Dec 2008 2:50 pm
Subject: [WanderlodgeForum] Practical troubleshooting your RV, 101 #1
Hello everyone;
Electrical systems in any venue, to many, is confusing and it does not have
to be. With just a few simple rules, one can do a systems check no matter
if it is a 12vdc/24vdc or an 110vac system.
The words, what? where?, how? and why? come to mind as the very basic start
to finding a problem with systematic troubleshooting.
What? equates to, What is the real problem? (does not mean what the problem
appears to be.)
Where? equates to the physical location of items along a "path" in a given
system.
How? equates to how does it or is supposed to work?
Why? (remember when Dad used to say "there is no such word as why." The why
equates to why did it happen in the first place.
It is important to try to learn how a system is designed to work or the
right way to say this is "know the sequence of operation." If you know how
it is supposed to work then you are ready to start trying to; "recognize"
"localize" and "isolate" a problem.
Ok lets pick a simple system; 12vdc fan. Problem, fan does not run. Ok so
now we know it is a fan not coming on, so the problem is "recognized." So
what do we really know about "where it is." A switch on a dash, the fan is
located behind a panel near the co pilots feet, but is there more in that
system besides a switch and fan motor? Could there be a "relay" in line
between the switch and fan? Could there be a circuit breaker or fuse,
between the switch and fan motor? All are valid questions and can be
answered with a "sequence" of operation.
"Sequence" of operation for the system above; 1.it is a 12vdc system so
from the system circuit breaker, 12vdc is supplied to a switch and from the
switch to the coil of a 12vdc relay then 12vdc passes through the contacts
of the relay to the fan motor and the fan motor runs.
Now we know the "how" it works, we can start to "localize" the problem.
Starting at the circuit break we are going to check for 12vdc to be sure
the switch is in fact getting power. Yes voltage is present. Then go to the
switch and check for 12vdc, yes voltage is present on one side, then switch
the switch to the run position and check for voltage. It is found that
12vdc is present on the out put side of the switch. Next stop is the relay
coil, check for 12vdc at the coil of the relay, yes 12vdc is resent, then
check the out put side of the relay, no voltage found, hmmm, interesting,
now it is time to find out how the relay works, 12vdc goes to the coil of
the relay then passes through the coil to ground and the relay energizes
and the contacts are changed in state for open to closed, but the 12vdc
power source is from some where else going to the 12vdc fan motor and not
the switch on the dash. Now one must check the voltage patch the flow
through the relay to the 12vdc fan motor, and find the "why" it is not
present. So we have isolated the part of the 12vdc circuit that is not
working to turn on the fan with the switch. Checking the "source" circuit
breaker, it is found not to have 12vdc present. So the circuit breaker is
the bad part, it must be replaced. Now switch on the dash switch and the
fan motor runs. Great! you have fixed the problem, or have you? Did we look
into the "why" the circuit breaker went bad? This part of trouble shooting
is not always well defined and in fact may not be found. So that brings up
the question, what must happen to make a circuit breaker fail? Lose
connections are a cause. Bad ground is a cause, age of the part will
contribute to the cause of failure.
As you can see there can be several steps and items in a system even one as
simple as this one. Trouble shooting can be VERY time consuming, but it has
to be done to make a system work. Once you have been through a few
troubleshooting procedures like this, you learn some short cuts here and
there that helps to "cut" the time factor down a bit.
Also a thing to remember. Nothing is set in concrete when trying to find
out and repair what does not work. What I am trying to do here is show a
process that is practical, saves time and effort and cuts the cost of a repair.
Let's not throw money at something in hopes that is will make it run. You
can sure go through allot of money doing that and still not find the
problem let alone fix it. So with a few trouble shooting steps we have
spent $3.00 on a part to make the system run, instead of spending $225.00
in parts like new switch? new fan motor, new relay and so forth. Yes it has
cost the time to troubleshoot the system but is still cheaper on a repair
bill than throwing money at some thing.
Will stop here for this first post and wait a few days and answer any
questions anyone may have.
Ues I know it is a VERY simple system noted above, but there are a large
percentage of people that do not have any idea what or how. Please keep
that in mind when posting on this first post.
Safe travels,
Ralph and Charolette Fullenwider
84FC35 "Ruff Diamond"
Duncan, Oklahoma
Thanks for the detail Ralph. While I understand this I will print this off and put it in my files as a memo for myself and for the next owner. Great stuff for BB folks. Merry Christmas.
Leroy Eckert
1990 WB-40 Smoke N Mirrors
Dahlonega, GA
Royale Conversion
--- On Wed, 12/24/08, Ralph L. Fullenwider wrote:
From: Ralph L. Fullenwider
Subject: [WanderlodgeForum] Practical troubleshooting your RV, 101 #1
To: WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Wednesday, December 24, 2008, 3:50 PM
Hello everyone;
Electrical systems in any venue, to many, is confusing and it does not have
to be. With just a few simple rules, one can do a systems check no matter
if it is a 12vdc/24vdc or an 110vac system.
The words, what? where?, how? and why? come to mind as the very basic start
to finding a problem with systematic troubleshooting.
What? equates to, What is the real problem? (does not mean what the problem
appears to be.)
Where? equates to the physical location of items along a "path" in a given
system.
How? equates to how does it or is supposed to work?
Why? (remember when Dad used to say "there is no such word as why." The why
equates to why did it happen in the first place.
It is important to try to learn how a system is designed to work or the
right way to say this is "know the sequence of operation." If you know how
it is supposed to work then you are ready to start trying to; "recognize"
"localize" and "isolate" a problem.
Ok lets pick a simple system; 12vdc fan. Problem, fan does not run. Ok so
now we know it is a fan not coming on, so the problem is "recognized. " So
what do we really know about "where it is." A switch on a dash, the fan is
located behind a panel near the co pilots feet, but is there more in that
system besides a switch and fan motor? Could there be a "relay" in line
between the switch and fan? Could there be a circuit breaker or fuse,
between the switch and fan motor? All are valid questions and can be
answered with a "sequence" of operation.
"Sequence" of operation for the system above; 1.it is a 12vdc system so
from the system circuit breaker, 12vdc is supplied to a switch and from the
switch to the coil of a 12vdc relay then 12vdc passes through the contacts
of the relay to the fan motor and the fan motor runs.
Now we know the "how" it works, we can start to "localize" the problem.
Starting at the circuit break we are going to check for 12vdc to be sure
the switch is in fact getting power. Yes voltage is present. Then go to the
switch and check for 12vdc, yes voltage is present on one side, then switch
the switch to the run position and check for voltage. It is found that
12vdc is present on the out put side of the switch. Next stop is the relay
coil, check for 12vdc at the coil of the relay, yes 12vdc is resent, then
check the out put side of the relay, no voltage found, hmmm, interesting,
now it is time to find out how the relay works, 12vdc goes to the coil of
the relay then passes through the coil to ground and the relay energizes
and the contacts are changed in state for open to closed, but the 12vdc
power source is from some where else going to the 12vdc fan motor and not
the switch on the dash. Now one must check the voltage patch the flow
through the relay to the 12vdc fan motor, and find the "why" it is not
present. So we have isolated the part of the 12vdc circuit that is not
working to turn on the fan with the switch. Checking the "source" circuit
breaker, it is found not to have 12vdc present. So the circuit breaker is
the bad part, it must be replaced. Now switch on the dash switch and the
fan motor runs. Great! you have fixed the problem, or have you? Did we look
into the "why" the circuit breaker went bad? This part of trouble shooting
is not always well defined and in fact may not be found. So that brings up
the question, what must happen to make a circuit breaker fail? Lose
connections are a cause. Bad ground is a cause, age of the part will
contribute to the cause of failure.
As you can see there can be several steps and items in a system even one as
simple as this one. Trouble shooting can be VERY time consuming, but it has
to be done to make a system work. Once you have been through a few
troubleshooting procedures like this, you learn some short cuts here and
there that helps to "cut" the time factor down a bit.
Also a thing to remember. Nothing is set in concrete when trying to find
out and repair what does not work. What I am trying to do here is show a
process that is practical, saves time and effort and cuts the cost of a repair.
Let's not throw money at something in hopes that is will make it run. You
can sure go through allot of money doing that and still not find the
problem let alone fix it. So with a few trouble shooting steps we have
spent $3.00 on a part to make the system run, instead of spending $225.00
in parts like new switch? new fan motor, new relay and so forth. Yes it has
cost the time to troubleshoot the system but is still cheaper on a repair
bill than throwing money at some thing.
Will stop here for this first post and wait a few days and answer any
questions anyone may have.
Ues I know it is a VERY simple system noted above, but there are a large
percentage of people that do not have any idea what or how. Please keep
that in mind when posting on this first post.
Safe travels,
Ralph and Charolette Fullenwider
84FC35 "Ruff Diamond"
Duncan, Oklahoma
|
Another useful tip.
I've got quite a lot of experience troubleshooting electronics but I
have to admit these BBs had me on the ropes. No diagrams, wrong
diagrams and previous owner mods were killers.
I just recently broke down and bought a "clamp" ammeter. Sears has a
nice VOM w/ clamp ammeter for around $70.
Good god ... how much this helps. Voltage can be present even with
bad contacts and in some cases will show up even if the circuit
you're tracing is open on one direction. (Coming from the back.) But
current is like water, it's either flowing or not and if its flowing
its got to be going somewhere.
The clamp requires some work sometimes because you can only "clamp"
one direction of the circuit so you have to separate wires sometimes
and the clamp is a little large maybe requiring "jumpers" but it sure
clears up mysteries like "flakey" relay coils fast.
Don't leave home without one,
GPSGary
Hello All,
Merry Christmas,
I have an 85 PT-40 and full schematics on the computer and am happy to help anyone troubleshoot with diagrams or techniques. I fix broadcast transmitters so I am familiar with many tricks
Gary
--- On Wed, 12/24/08, erniecarpet@... wrote:
From: erniecarpet@...
Subject: Re: [WanderlodgeForum] Practical troubleshooting your RV, 101 #1
To: WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Wednesday, December 24, 2008, 3:54 PM
Ralph, thank you for posting this information. Since this is your baby, I'll still want you to work on my stuff. Merry Christmas, Ernie and Brenda Ekberg 83PT40 in sunny Texas
derlodgeForum@ yahoogroups. com
Sent: Wed, 24 Dec 2008 2:50 pm
Subject: [WanderlodgeForum] Practical troubleshooting your RV, 101 #1
Hello everyone;
Electrical systems in any venue, to many, is confusing and it does not have
to be. With just a few simple rules, one can do a systems check no matter
if it is a 12vdc/24vdc or an 110vac system.
The words, what? where?, how? and why? come to mind as the very basic start
to finding a problem with systematic troubleshooting.
What? equates to, What is the real problem? (does not mean what the problem
appears to be.)
Where? equates to the physical location of items along a "path" in a given
system.
How? equates to how does it or is supposed to work?
Why? (remember when Dad used to say "there is no such word as why." The why
equates to why did it happen in the first place.
It is important to try to learn how a system is designed to work or the
right way to say this is "know the sequence of operation." If you know how
it is supposed to work then you are ready to start trying to; "recognize"
"localize" and "isolate" a problem.
Ok lets pick a simple system; 12vdc fan. Problem, fan does not run. Ok so
now we know it is a fan not coming on, so the problem is "recognized. " So
what do we really know about "where it is." A switch on a dash, the fan is
located behind a panel near the co pilots feet, but is there more in that
system besides a switch and fan motor? Could there be a "relay" in line
between the switch and fan? Could there be a circuit breaker or fuse,
between the switch and fan motor? All are valid questions and can be
answered with a "sequence" of operation.
"Sequence" of operation for the system above; 1.it is a 12vdc system so
from the system circuit breaker, 12vdc is supplied to a switch and from the
switch to the coil of a 12vdc relay then 12vdc passes through the contacts
of the relay to the fan motor and the fan motor runs.
Now we know the "how" it works, we can start to "localize" the problem.
Starting at the circuit break we are going to check for 12vdc to be sure
the switch is in fact getting power. Yes voltage is present. Then go to the
switch and check for 12vdc, yes voltage is present on one side, then switch
the switch to the run position and check for voltage. It is found that
12vdc is present on the out put side of the switch. Next stop is the relay
coil, check for 12vdc at the coil of the relay, yes 12vdc is resent, then
check the out put side of the relay, no voltage found, hmmm, interesting,
now it is time to find out how the relay works, 12vdc goes to the coil of
the relay then passes through the coil to ground and the relay energizes
and the contacts are changed in state for open to closed, but the 12vdc
power source is from some where else going to the 12vdc fan motor and not
the switch on the dash. Now one must check the voltage patch the flow
through the relay to the 12vdc fan motor, and find the "why" it is not
present. So we have isolated the part of the 12vdc circuit that is not
working to turn on the fan with the switch. Checking the "source" circuit
breaker, it is found not to have 12vdc present. So the circuit breaker is
the bad part, it must be replaced. Now switch on the dash switch and the
fan motor runs. Great! you have fixed the problem, or have you? Did we look
into the "why" the circuit breaker went bad? This part of trouble shooting
is not always well defined and in fact may not be found. So that brings up
the question, what must happen to make a circuit breaker fail? Lose
connections are a cause. Bad ground is a cause, age of the part will
contribute to the cause of failure.
As you can see there can be several steps and items in a system even one as
simple as this one. Trouble shooting can be VERY time consuming, but it has
to be done to make a system work. Once you have been through a few
troubleshooting procedures like this, you learn some short cuts here and
there that helps to "cut" the time factor down a bit.
Also a thing to remember. Nothing is set in concrete when trying to find
out and repair what does not work. What I am trying to do here is show a
process that is practical, saves time and effort and cuts the cost of a repair.
Let's not throw money at something in hopes that is will make it run. You
can sure go through allot of money doing that and still not find the
problem let alone fix it. So with a few trouble shooting steps we have
spent $3.00 on a part to make the system run, instead of spending $225.00
in parts like new switch? new fan motor, new relay and so forth. Yes it has
cost the time to troubleshoot the system but is still cheaper on a repair
bill than throwing money at some thing.
Will stop here for this first post and wait a few days and answer any
questions anyone may have.
Ues I know it is a VERY simple system noted above, but there are a large
percentage of people that do not have any idea what or how. Please keep
that in mind when posting on this first post.
Safe travels,
Ralph and Charolette Fullenwider
84FC35 "Ruff Diamond"
Duncan, Oklahoma
|
Hi Ralph,
On our trip here to South Padre Island, we stopped at a campground in
Rockport.
I was working outside with my Dremel plugged in and it bogged down. I
heard a pop and I lost all the grounds in the bus and blew 6 surge
protectors.
Where do I look?
Could the ground have melted off at the bus 50 amp inlet?
Bob Lawrence
84 PT36
South Padre Island, Texas
> Hello everyone;
>
> Electrical systems in any venue, to many, is confusing and it does
not have
> to be. With just a few simple rules, one can do a systems check no
matter
> if it is a 12vdc/24vdc or an 110vac system.
>
> The words, what? where?, how? and why? come to mind as the very
basic start
> to finding a problem with systematic troubleshooting.
>
> What? equates to, What is the real problem? (does not mean what the
problem
> appears to be.)
> Where? equates to the physical location of items along a "path" in
a given
> system.
> How? equates to how does it or is supposed to work?
> Why? (remember when Dad used to say "there is no such word as why."
The why
> equates to why did it happen in the first place.
>
> It is important to try to learn how a system is designed to work or
the
> right way to say this is "know the sequence of operation." If you
know how
> it is supposed to work then you are ready to start trying
to; "recognize"
> "localize" and "isolate" a problem.
>
> Ok lets pick a simple system; 12vdc fan. Problem, fan does not run.
Ok so
> now we know it is a fan not coming on, so the problem
is "recognized." So
> what do we really know about "where it is." A switch on a dash, the
fan is
> located behind a panel near the co pilots feet, but is there more
in that
> system besides a switch and fan motor? Could there be a "relay" in
line
> between the switch and fan? Could there be a circuit breaker or
fuse,
> between the switch and fan motor? All are valid questions and can
be
> answered with a "sequence" of operation.
>
> "Sequence" of operation for the system above; 1.it is a 12vdc
system so
> from the system circuit breaker, 12vdc is supplied to a switch and
from the
> switch to the coil of a 12vdc relay then 12vdc passes through the
contacts
> of the relay to the fan motor and the fan motor runs.
>
> Now we know the "how" it works, we can start to "localize" the
problem.
> Starting at the circuit break we are going to check for 12vdc to be
sure
> the switch is in fact getting power. Yes voltage is present. Then
go to the
> switch and check for 12vdc, yes voltage is present on one side,
then switch
> the switch to the run position and check for voltage. It is found
that
> 12vdc is present on the out put side of the switch. Next stop is
the relay
> coil, check for 12vdc at the coil of the relay, yes 12vdc is
resent, then
> check the out put side of the relay, no voltage found, hmmm,
interesting,
> now it is time to find out how the relay works, 12vdc goes to the
coil of
> the relay then passes through the coil to ground and the relay
energizes
> and the contacts are changed in state for open to closed, but the
12vdc
> power source is from some where else going to the 12vdc fan motor
and not
> the switch on the dash. Now one must check the voltage patch the
flow
> through the relay to the 12vdc fan motor, and find the "why" it is
not
> present. So we have isolated the part of the 12vdc circuit that is
not
> working to turn on the fan with the switch. Checking the "source"
circuit
> breaker, it is found not to have 12vdc present. So the circuit
breaker is
> the bad part, it must be replaced. Now switch on the dash switch
and the
> fan motor runs. Great! you have fixed the problem, or have you? Did
we look
> into the "why" the circuit breaker went bad? This part of trouble
shooting
> is not always well defined and in fact may not be found. So that
brings up
> the question, what must happen to make a circuit breaker fail? Lose
> connections are a cause. Bad ground is a cause, age of the part
will
> contribute to the cause of failure.
>
> As you can see there can be several steps and items in a system
even one as
> simple as this one. Trouble shooting can be VERY time consuming,
but it has
> to be done to make a system work. Once you have been through a few
> troubleshooting procedures like this, you learn some short cuts
here and
> there that helps to "cut" the time factor down a bit.
>
> Also a thing to remember. Nothing is set in concrete when trying to
find
> out and repair what does not work. What I am trying to do here is
show a
> process that is practical, saves time and effort and cuts the cost
of a repair.
>
> Let's not throw money at something in hopes that is will make it
run. You
> can sure go through allot of money doing that and still not find
the
> problem let alone fix it. So with a few trouble shooting steps we
have
> spent $3.00 on a part to make the system run, instead of spending
$225.00
> in parts like new switch? new fan motor, new relay and so forth.
Yes it has
> cost the time to troubleshoot the system but is still cheaper on a
repair
> bill than throwing money at some thing.
>
> Will stop here for this first post and wait a few days and answer
any
> questions anyone may have.
>
> Ues I know it is a VERY simple system noted above, but there are a
large
> percentage of people that do not have any idea what or how. Please
keep
> that in mind when posting on this first post.
>
> Safe travels,
>
> Ralph and Charolette Fullenwider
> 84FC35 "Ruff Diamond"
> Duncan, Oklahoma
>
Bob, check your plug at the bus end. Mine acted strange at the last rally. Ernie- 83PT40 in Weatherford, Tex
In a message dated 12/28/08 18:40:06 Central Standard Time, bobandarlene@... writes:
Hi Ralph,
On our trip here to South Padre Island, we stopped at a campground in
Rockport.
I was working outside with my Dremel plugged in and it bogged down. I
heard a pop and I lost all the grounds in the bus and blew 6 surge
protectors.
Where do I look?
Could the ground have melted off at the bus 50 amp inlet?
Bob Lawrence
84 PT36
South Padre Island, Texas
> Hello everyone;
>
> Electrical systems in any venue, to many, is confusing and it does
not have
> to be. With just a few simple rules, one can do a systems check no
matter
> if it is a 12vdc/24vdc or an 110vac system.
>
> The words, what? where?, how? and why? come to mind as the very
basic start
> to finding a problem with systematic troubleshooting.
>
> What? equates to, What is the real problem? (does not mean what the
problem
> appears to be.)
> Where? equates to the physical location of items along a "path" in
a given
> system.
> How? equates to how does it or is supposed to work?
> Why? (remember when Dad used to say "there is no such word as why."
The why
> equates to why did it happen in the first place.
>
> It is important to try to learn how a system is designed to work or
the
> right way to say this is "know the sequence of operation." If you
know how
> it is supposed to work then you are ready to start trying
to; "recognize"
> "localize" and "isolate" a problem.
>
> Ok lets pick a simple system; 12vdc fan. Problem, fan does not run.
Ok so
> now we know it is a fan not coming on, so the problem
is "recognized." So
> what do we really know about "where it is." A switch on a dash, the
fan is
> located behind a panel near the co pilots feet, but is there more
in that
> system besides a switch and fan motor? Could there be a "relay" in
line
> between the switch and f
an? Could there be a circuit breaker or
fuse,
> between the switch and fan motor? All are valid questions and can
be
> answered with a "sequence" of operation.
>
> "Sequence" of operation for the system above; 1.it is a 12vdc
system so
> from the system circuit breaker, 12vdc is supplied to a switch and
from the
> switch to the coil of a 12vdc relay then 12vdc passes through the
contacts
> of the relay to the fan motor and the fan motor runs.
>
> Now we know the "how" it works, we can start to "localize" the
problem.
> Starting at the circuit break we are going to check for 12vdc to be
sure
> the switch is in fact getting power. Yes voltage is present. Then
go to the
> switch and check for 12vdc, yes voltage is present on one side,
then switch
> the switch to the run position and check for voltage. It is found
that
> 12vdc is present on the out put side of the switch. Next stop is
the relay
> coil, check for 12vdc at the coil of the relay, yes 12vdc is
resent, then
> check the out put side of the relay, no voltage found, hmmm,
interesting,
> now it is time to find out how the relay works, 12vdc goes to the
coil of
> the relay then passes through the coil to ground and the relay
energizes
> and the contacts are changed in state for open to closed, but the
12vdc
> power source is from some where else going to the 12vdc fan motor
and not
> the switch on the dash. Now one must check the voltage patch the
flow
> through the relay to the 12vdc fan motor, and find the "why" it is
not
> present. So we have isolated the part of the 12vdc circuit that is
not
> working to turn on the fan with the switch. Checking the "source"
circuit
> breaker, it is found not to have 12vdc present. So the circuit
breaker is
> the bad part, it must be replaced. Now switch on t
he dash switch
and the
> fan motor runs. Great! you have fixed the problem, or have you? Did
we look
> into the "why" the circuit breaker went bad? This part of trouble
shooting
> is not always well defined and in fact may not be found. So that
brings up
> the question, what must happen to make a circuit breaker fail? Lose
> connections are a cause. Bad ground is a cause, age of the part
will
> contribute to the cause of failure.
>
> As you can see there can be several steps and items in a system
even one as
> simple as this one. Trouble shooting can be VERY time consuming,
but it has
> to be done to make a system work. Once you have been through a few
> troubleshooting procedures like this, you learn some short cuts
here and
> there that helps to "cut" the time factor down a bit.
>
> Also a thing to remember. Nothing is set in concrete when trying to
find
> out and repair what does not work. What I am trying to do here is
show a
> process that is practical, saves time and effort and cuts the cost
of a repair.
>
> Let's not throw money at something in hopes that is will make it
run. You
> can sure go through allot of money doing that and still not find
the
> problem let alone fix it. So with a few trouble shooting steps we
have
> spent $3.00 on a part to make the system run, instead of spending
$225.00
> in parts like new switch? new fan motor, new relay and so forth.
Yes it has
> cost the time to troubleshoot the system but is still cheaper on a
repair
> bill than throwing money at some thing.
>
> Will stop here for this first post and wait a few days and answer
any
> questions anyone may have.
>
> Ues I know it is a VERY simple system noted above, but there are a
large
> percentage of people that do not have any idea what or how. Plea
se
keep
> that in mind when posting on this first post.
>
> Safe travels,
>
> Ralph and Charolette Fullenwider
> 84FC35 "Ruff Diamond"
> Duncan, Oklahoma
>
Bob, please tell me the name of the campground. I am at Wal-mart in Victoria and plan on a stop in Corpus before going to SPI.
Wallace Craig
95 WLWB 42
Azle, Texas
--- On Sun, 12/28/08, Bob Lawrence wrote:
From: Bob Lawrence
Subject: [WanderlodgeForum] Re: Practical troubleshooting your RV, 101 #1
To: WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Sunday, December 28, 2008, 6:39 PM
Hi Ralph,
On our trip here to South Padre Island, we stopped at a campground in Rockport.
I was working outside with my Dremel plugged in and it bogged down. I heard a pop and I lost all the grounds in the bus and blew 6 surge protectors.
Where do I look?
Could the ground have melted off at the bus 50 amp inlet?
Bob Lawrence
84 PT36
South Padre Island, Texas
> Hello everyone;
> > Electrical systems in any venue, to many, is confusing and it does not have > to be. With just a few simple rules, one can do a systems check no matter > if it is a 12vdc/24vdc or an 110vac system.
> > The words, what? where?, how? and why? come to mind as the very basic start > to finding a problem with systematic troubleshooting.
> > What? equates to, What is the real problem? (does not mean what the problem > appears to be.)
> Where? equates to the physical location of items along a "path"
in a given > system.
> How? equates to how does it or is supposed to work?
> Why? (remember when Dad used to say "there is no such word as
why." The why > equates to why did it happen in the first place.
> > It is important to try to learn how a system is designed to work or the > right way to say this is "know the sequence of operation." If
you know how > it is supposed to work then you are ready to start trying to; "recognize" > "localize" and "isolate" a problem.
> > Ok lets pick a simple system; 12vdc fan. Problem, fan does not run. Ok so > now we know it is a fan not coming on, so the problem is "recognized." So > what do we really know about "where it is." A switch on a dash,
the fan is > located behind a panel near the co pilots feet, but is there more in that > system besides a switch and fan motor? Could there be a "relay"
in line > between the switch and fan? Could there be a circuit breaker or fuse, > between the switch and fan motor? All are valid questions and can be > answered with a "sequence" of operation.
> > "Sequence" of operation for the system above; 1.it is a 12vdc system so > from the system circuit breaker, 12vdc is supplied to a switch and from the > switch to the coil of a 12vdc relay then 12vdc passes through the contacts > of the relay to the fan motor and the fan motor runs.
> > Now we know the "how" it works, we can start to
"localize" the problem. > Starting at the circuit break we are going to check for 12vdc to be sure > the switch is in fact getting power. Yes voltage is present. Then go to the > switch and check for 12vdc, yes voltage is present on one side, then switch > the switch to the run position and check for voltage. It is found that > 12vdc is present on the out put side of the switch. Next stop is the relay > coil, check for 12vdc at the coil of the relay, yes 12vdc is resent, then > check the out put side of the relay, no voltage found, hmmm, interesting, > now it is time to find out how the relay works, 12vdc goes to the coil of > the relay then passes through the coil to ground and the relay energizes > and the contacts are changed in state for open to closed, but the 12vdc > power source is from some where else going to the 12vdc fan motor and not > the switch on the dash. Now one must check the voltage patch the flow > through the relay to the 12vdc fan motor, and find the "why" it
is not > present. So we have isolated the part of the 12vdc circuit that is not > working to turn on the fan with the switch. Checking the
"source" circuit > breaker, it is found not to have 12vdc present. So the circuit breaker is > the bad part, it must be replaced. Now switch on the dash switch and the > fan motor runs. Great! you have fixed the problem, or have you? Did we look > into the "why" the circuit breaker went bad? This part of
trouble shooting > is not always well defined and in fact may not be found. So that brings up > the question, what must happen to make a circuit breaker fail? Lose > connections are a cause. Bad ground is a cause, age of the part will > contribute to the cause of failure.
> > As you can see there can be several steps and items in a system even one as > simple as this one. Trouble shooting can be VERY time consuming, but it has > to be done to make a system work. Once you have been through a few > troubleshooting procedures like this, you learn some short cuts here and > there that helps to "cut" the time factor down a bit.
> > Also a thing to remember. Nothing is set in concrete when trying to find > out and repair what does not work. What I am trying to do here is show a > process that is practical, saves time and effort and cuts the cost of a repair.
> > Let's not throw money at something in hopes that is will make it run. You > can sure go through allot of money doing that and still not find the > problem let alone fix it. So with a few trouble shooting steps we have > spent $3.00 on a part to make the system run, instead of spending $225.00 > in parts like new switch? new fan motor, new relay and so forth. Yes it has > cost the time to troubleshoot the system but is still cheaper on a repair > bill than throwing money at some thing.
> > Will stop here for this first post and wait a few days and answer any > questions anyone may have.
> > Ues I know it is a VERY simple system noted above, but there are a large > percentage of people that do not have any idea what or how. Please keep > that in mind when posting on this first post.
> > Safe travels,
> > Ralph and Charolette Fullenwider
> 84FC35 "Ruff Diamond"
> Duncan, Oklahoma
>
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Hi Wallace,
Stayed at Drifters Resort in Rockport.
Took hwy 188 to business 35. Left on business 35 (not hwy 35). Left
about 1/4 mile on left. 5 year old park. Stayed in space 81. Best as
at the end and no one on one side. Phone 361-727-9105.
See you here at Padre.
Bob
84 PT36
Padre Island, Texas
> Bob, please tell me the name of the campground. I am at Wal-mart in
Victoria and plan on a stop in Corpus before going to SPI.
>
> Wallace Craig
> 95 WLWB 42
> Azle, Texas
>
> --- On Sun, 12/28/08, Bob Lawrence
wrote:
>
> From: Bob Lawrence
> Subject: [WanderlodgeForum] Re: Practical troubleshooting your RV,
101 #1
> To: WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com
> Date: Sunday, December 28, 2008, 6:39 PM
>
> Hi Ralph,
> On our trip here to South Padre Island, we stopped at a campground
in
> Rockport.
> I was working outside with my Dremel plugged in and it bogged down.
I
> heard a pop and I lost all the grounds in the bus and blew 6 surge
> protectors.
> Where do I look?
> Could the ground have melted off at the bus 50 amp inlet?
> Bob Lawrence
> 84 PT36
> South Padre Island, Texas
>
> > Hello everyone;
> >
> > Electrical systems in any venue, to many, is confusing and it
does
> not have
> > to be. With just a few simple rules, one can do a systems check
no
> matter
> > if it is a 12vdc/24vdc or an 110vac system.
> >
> > The words, what? where?, how? and why? come to mind as the very
> basic start
> > to finding a problem with systematic troubleshooting.
> >
> > What? equates to, What is the real problem? (does not mean what
the
> problem
> > appears to be.)
> > Where? equates to the physical location of items along a "path"
> in
> a given
> > system.
> > How? equates to how does it or is supposed to work?
> > Why? (remember when Dad used to say "there is no such word as
> why."
> The why
> > equates to why did it happen in the first place.
> >
> > It is important to try to learn how a system is designed to work
or
> the
> > right way to say this is "know the sequence of operation." If
> you
> know how
> > it is supposed to work then you are ready to start trying
> to; "recognize"
> > "localize" and "isolate" a problem.
> >
> > Ok lets pick a simple system; 12vdc fan. Problem, fan does not
run.
> Ok so
> > now we know it is a fan not coming on, so the problem
> is "recognized." So
> > what do we really know about "where it is." A switch on a dash,
> the
> fan is
> > located behind a panel near the co pilots feet, but is there more
> in that
> > system besides a switch and fan motor? Could there be a "relay"
> in
> line
> > between the switch and fan? Could there be a circuit breaker or
> fuse,
> > between the switch and fan motor? All are valid questions and can
> be
> > answered with a "sequence" of operation.
> >
> > "Sequence" of operation for the system above; 1.it is a 12vdc
> system so
> > from the system circuit breaker, 12vdc is supplied to a switch
and
> from the
> > switch to the coil of a 12vdc relay then 12vdc passes through the
> contacts
> > of the relay to the fan motor and the fan motor runs.
> >
> > Now we know the "how" it works, we can start to
> "localize" the
> problem.
> > Starting at the circuit break we are going to check for 12vdc to
be
> sure
> > the switch is in fact getting power. Yes voltage is present. Then
> go to the
> > switch and check for 12vdc, yes voltage is present on one side,
> then switch
> > the switch to the run position and check for voltage. It is found
> that
> > 12vdc is present on the out put side of the switch. Next stop is
> the relay
> > coil, check for 12vdc at the coil of the relay, yes 12vdc is
> resent, then
> > check the out put side of the relay, no voltage found, hmmm,
> interesting,
> > now it is time to find out how the relay works, 12vdc goes to the
> coil of
> > the relay then passes through the coil to ground and the relay
> energizes
> > and the contacts are changed in state for open to closed, but the
> 12vdc
> > power source is from some where else going to the 12vdc fan motor
> and not
> > the switch on the dash. Now one must check the voltage patch the
> flow
> > through the relay to the 12vdc fan motor, and find the "why" it
> is
> not
> > present. So we have isolated the part of the 12vdc circuit that
is
> not
> > working to turn on the fan with the switch. Checking the
> "source"
> circuit
> > breaker, it is found not to have 12vdc present. So the circuit
> breaker is
> > the bad part, it must be replaced. Now switch on the dash switch
> and the
> > fan motor runs. Great! you have fixed the problem, or have you?
Did
> we look
> > into the "why" the circuit breaker went bad? This part of
> trouble
> shooting
> > is not always well defined and in fact may not be found. So that
> brings up
> > the question, what must happen to make a circuit breaker fail?
Lose
> > connections are a cause. Bad ground is a cause, age of the part
> will
> > contribute to the cause of failure.
> >
> > As you can see there can be several steps and items in a system
> even one as
> > simple as this one. Trouble shooting can be VERY time consuming,
> but it has
> > to be done to make a system work. Once you have been through a
few
> > troubleshooting procedures like this, you learn some short cuts
> here and
> > there that helps to "cut" the time factor down a bit.
> >
> > Also a thing to remember. Nothing is set in concrete when trying
to
> find
> > out and repair what does not work. What I am trying to do here is
> show a
> > process that is practical, saves time and effort and cuts the
cost
> of a repair.
> >
> > Let's not throw money at something in hopes that is will make it
> run. You
> > can sure go through allot of money doing that and still not find
> the
> > problem let alone fix it. So with a few trouble shooting steps we
> have
> > spent $3.00 on a part to make the system run, instead of spending
> $225.00
> > in parts like new switch? new fan motor, new relay and so forth.
> Yes it has
> > cost the time to troubleshoot the system but is still cheaper on
a
> repair
> > bill than throwing money at some thing.
> >
> > Will stop here for this first post and wait a few days and answer
> any
> > questions anyone may have.
> >
> > Ues I know it is a VERY simple system noted above, but there are
a
> large
> > percentage of people that do not have any idea what or how.
Please
> keep
> > that in mind when posting on this first post.
> >
> > Safe travels,
> >
> > Ralph and Charolette Fullenwider
> > 84FC35 "Ruff Diamond"
> > Duncan, Oklahoma
> >
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
Thanks, Ernie,
Was thinking about it a little while ago.
Will check ii in the am.
Bob
> Bob, check your plug at the bus end. Mine acted strange at the last
rally. Ernie- 83PT40 in Weatherford, Tex
>
>
>
> In a message dated 12/28/08 18:40:06 Central Standard Time,
bobandarlene@... writes:
> Hi Ralph,
> On our trip here to South Padre Island, we stopped at a campground
in
> Rockport.
> I was working outside with my Dremel plugged in and it bogged down.
I
> heard a pop and I lost all the grounds in the bus and blew 6 surge
> protectors.
> Where do I look?
> Could the ground have melted off at the bus 50 amp inlet?
> Bob Lawrence
> 84 PT36
> South Padre Island, Texas
>
> > Hello everyone;
> >
> > Electrical systems in any venue, to many, is confusing and it
does
> not have
> > to be. With just a few simple rules, one can do a systems check
no
> matter
> > if it is a 12vdc/24vdc or an 110vac system.
> >
> > The words, what? where?, how? and why? come to mind as the very
> basic start
> > to finding a problem with systematic troubleshooting.
> >
> > What? equates to, What is the real problem? (does not mean what
the
> problem
> > appears to be.)
> > Where? equates to the physical location of items along a "path"
in
> a given
> > system.
> > How? equates to how does it or is supposed to work?
> > Why? (remember when Dad used to say "there is no such word as
why."
> The why
> > equates to why did it happen in the first place.
> >
> > It is important to try to learn how a system is designed to work
or
> the
> > right way to say this is "know the sequence of operation." If you
> know how
> > it is supposed to work then you are ready to start trying
> to; "recognize"
> > "localize" and "isolate" a problem.
> >
> > Ok lets pick a simple system; 12vdc fan. Problem, fan does not
run.
> Ok so
> > now we know it is a fan not coming on, so the problem
> is "recognized." So
> > what do we really know about "where it is." A switch on a dash,
the
> fan is
> > located behind a panel near the co pilots feet, but is there more
> in that
> > system besides a switch and fan motor? Could there be a "relay"
in
> line
> > between the switch and fan? Could there be a circuit breaker or
> fuse,
> > between the switch and fan motor? All are valid questions and can
> be
> > answered with a "sequence" of operation.
> >
> > "Sequence" of operation for the system above; 1.it is a 12vdc
> system so
> > from the system circuit breaker, 12vdc is supplied to a switch
and
> from the
> > switch to the coil of a 12vdc relay then 12vdc passes through the
> contacts
> > of the relay to the fan motor and the fan motor runs.
> >
> > Now we know the "how" it works, we can start to "localize" the
> problem.
> > Starting at the circuit break we are going to check for 12vdc to
be
> sure
> > the switch is in fact getting power. Yes voltage is present. Then
> go to the
> > switch and check for 12vdc, yes voltage is present on one side,
> then switch
> > the switch to the run position and check for voltage. It is found
> that
> > 12vdc is present on the out put side of the switch. Next stop is
> the relay
> > coil, check for 12vdc at the coil of the relay, yes 12vdc is
> resent, then
> > check the out put side of the relay, no voltage found, hmmm,
> interesting,
> > now it is time to find out how the relay works, 12vdc goes to the
> coil of
> > the relay then passes through the coil to ground and the relay
> energizes
> > and the contacts are changed in state for open to closed, but the
> 12vdc
> > power source is from some where else going to the 12vdc fan motor
> and not
> > the switch on the dash. Now one must check the voltage patch the
> flow
> > through the relay to the 12vdc fan motor, and find the "why" it
is
> not
> > present. So we have isolated the part of the 12vdc circuit that
is
> not
> > working to turn on the fan with the switch. Checking the "source"
> circuit
> > breaker, it is found not to have 12vdc present. So the circuit
> breaker is
> > the bad part, it must be replaced. Now switch on the dash switch
> and the
> > fan motor runs. Great! you have fixed the problem, or have you?
Did
> we look
> > into the "why" the circuit breaker went bad? This part of trouble
> shooting
> > is not always well defined and in fact may not be found. So that
> brings up
> > the question, what must happen to make a circuit breaker fail?
Lose
> > connections are a cause. Bad ground is a cause, age of the part
> will
> > contribute to the cause of failure.
> >
> > As you can see there can be several steps and items in a system
> even one as
> > simple as this one. Trouble shooting can be VERY time consuming,
> but it has
> > to be done to make a system work. Once you have been through a
few
> > troubleshooting procedures like this, you learn some short cuts
> here and
> > there that helps to "cut" the time factor down a bit.
> >
> > Also a thing to remember. Nothing is set in concrete when trying
to
> find
> > out and repair what does not work. What I am trying to do here is
> show a
> > process that is practical, saves time and effort and cuts the
cost
> of a repair.
> >
> > Let's not throw money at something in hopes that is will make it
> run. You
> > can sure go through allot of money doing that and still not find
> the
> > problem let alone fix it. So with a few trouble shooting steps we
> have
> > spent $3.00 on a part to make the system run, instead of spending
> $225.00
> > in parts like new switch? new fan motor, new relay and so forth.
> Yes it has
> > cost the time to troubleshoot the system but is still cheaper on
a
> repair
> > bill than throwing money at some thing.
> >
> > Will stop here for this first post and wait a few days and answer
> any
> > questions anyone may have.
> >
> > Ues I know it is a VERY simple system noted above, but there are
a
> large
> > percentage of people that do not have any idea what or how.
Please
> keep
> > that in mind when posting on this first post.
> >
> > Safe travels,
> >
> > Ralph and Charolette Fullenwider
> > 84FC35 "Ruff Diamond"
> > Duncan, Oklahoma
> >
>