Wanderlodge Gurus - The Member Funded Wanderlodge Forum

I recently purchased a 2003 380 Bluebird motorhome. The odometer had
about 24,000 miles. (private sale) When I went to transfer the title I
discovered that the title had a history of "no actual millage". My
seller had a disclosure from the dealer he purchase the motorhome that
the millage was accurate. I have since talked to prior owners and have
discovered that the actual millage is probably between 50,000 and
70,000. I have hired counsel and I am considering an action against
the dealer for fraudulent disclosure to my seller. I need to obtain an
appraisal of the motorhome based on the fact that the millage is not
accurate. Anyone have any thoughts on where I might go?

I like Greg's idea the best.

Ernie Ekberg
83PT40
Livingston, Montana

-------------- Original message from "Hubert" : --------------

I recently purchased a 2003 380 Bluebird motorhome. The odometer had
about 24,000 miles. (private sale) When I went to transfer the title I
discovered that the title had a history of "no actual millage". My
seller had a disclosure from the dealer he purchase the motorhome that
the millage was accurate. I have since talked to prior owners and have
discovered that the actual millage is probably between 50,000 and
70,000. I have hired counsel and I am considering an action against
the dealer for fraudulent disclosure to my seller. I need to obtain an
appraisal of the motorhome based on the fact that the millage is not
accurate. Anyone have any thoughts on where I might go?

I would only make an effort to prove that the dealer knowlingly made
the change and demand a refund with cost or an amount that would have
adjusted your purchase decision baced on the odometer reading. Its
about the damage the odometer made on YOUR actual purchase decision.

I bet market value of a bus with 70,000 is close or the same as market
value of a bus with 25,000. An apprisal is so off the mark here
because the dealer could have one done on the two M380 milage senerios
then there would be 4 appraisals and one actual market result (your
purchase). "When the five dont jive" in court, (you can tell I
followed the OJ thing) the money spent on appraisals will prove them
non productive effort. If you ask for a high value the dealer will
have 'what if' appraisals done at his expence anyway.

I would look for published numbers to find a high recovery. use one
of the car dealer NADA books to show % of value baced on miles (for
several vehicles with a justification of the choice)and do the math
for the judge. You can find formulas that make your recovery number
high. Once you prove dealer spun the odom, All the judge needs is a
formula to help you stick it to the dealer.

Court action is too polite and expensive. Mix it up, have him served
by a competitor, his nextdoor neighbor or xwife. Be visible with your
discovery and assesment of potential recovery assets. Stay pissed
until made whole.

Was the dealers name BigBob?

GregoryO'Connor
94ptRomolandCa


--- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, "Hubert"
wrote:
>
> I recently purchased a 2003 380 Bluebird motorhome. The odometer had
> about 24,000 miles. (private sale) When I went to transfer the title
I
> discovered that the title had a history of "no actual millage". My
> seller had a disclosure from the dealer he purchase the motorhome
that
> the millage was accurate. I have since talked to prior owners and
have
> discovered that the actual millage is probably between 50,000 and
> 70,000. I have hired counsel and I am considering an action against
> the dealer for fraudulent disclosure to my seller. I need to obtain
an
> appraisal of the motorhome based on the fact that the millage is not
> accurate. Anyone have any thoughts on where I might go?
>

" I would only make an effort to prove that the dealer knowlingly made the
change and
demand a refund with cost or an amount that would have adjusted your purchase
decision
baced on the odometer reading. Its about the damage the odometer made on YOUR
actual
purchase decision."

I could not agree more. Although I am nor motor-home appraiser, I have a
background in
commercial real estate appraisal. An appraisal is an opinion of value.
Quantifying the
difference in value between coaches with 25,000 and 50,000 miles could be easily
contested given all the other variables that play into an appraisal.

If this dealer misrepresented the vehicle and you can prove it, his license and
perhaps more
importantly, reputation are at risk(assuming he needs these to conduct
business). Hold his
hand to the fire and he will likely settle to keep it quiet. If not, make a lot
of noise! Be
prepared to support you position.

Note that NADA specifically says "ignore mileage for value computation on diesel
vehicles."

For most of us, the ideal diesel vehicle will have, as part of its attributes, a
history of having been run long and regularly. 24,000 and 50,000 are both
"normal" mileages, and 70,000 isn't far out!

Don Bradner
90 PT40 "Blue Thunder"
Eureka, CA

On 3/23/2008 at 3:39 PM Gregory OConnor wrote:

>I would only make an effort to prove that the dealer knowlingly made
>the change and demand a refund with cost or an amount that would have
>adjusted your purchase decision baced on the odometer reading. Its
>about the damage the odometer made on YOUR actual purchase decision.
>
>I bet market value of a bus with 70,000 is close or the same as market
>value of a bus with 25,000. An apprisal is so off the mark here
>because the dealer could have one done on the two M380 milage senerios
>then there would be 4 appraisals and one actual market result (your
>purchase). "When the five dont jive" in court, (you can tell I
>followed the OJ thing) the money spent on appraisals will prove them
>non productive effort. If you ask for a high value the dealer will
>have 'what if' appraisals done at his expence anyway.
>
>I would look for published numbers to find a high recovery. use one
>of the car dealer NADA books to show % of value baced on miles (for
>several vehicles with a justification of the choice)and do the math
>for the judge. You can find formulas that make your recovery number
>high. Once you prove dealer spun the odom, All the judge needs is a
>formula to help you stick it to the dealer.
>
>Court action is too polite and expensive. Mix it up, have him served
>by a competitor, his nextdoor neighbor or xwife. Be visible with your
>discovery and assesment of potential recovery assets. Stay pissed
>until made whole.
>
>Was the dealers name BigBob?
>
>GregoryO'Connor
>94ptRomolandCa
>
>
> --- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, "Hubert"
>wrote:
>>
>> I recently purchased a 2003 380 Bluebird motorhome. The odometer had
>> about 24,000 miles. (private sale) When I went to transfer the title
>I
>> discovered that the title had a history of "no actual millage". My
>> seller had a disclosure from the dealer he purchase the motorhome
>that
>> the millage was accurate. I have since talked to prior owners and
>have
>> discovered that the actual millage is probably between 50,000 and
>> 70,000. I have hired counsel and I am considering an action against
>> the dealer for fraudulent disclosure to my seller. I need to obtain
>an
>> appraisal of the motorhome based on the fact that the millage is not
>> accurate. Anyone have any thoughts on where I might go?
>>
>
>
>
>------------------------------------
>
>Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>

You said this was a private sale and your PO bought it from a
dealer .. Proving odometer fraud is extremely difficult; dealers are
less likely to commit the fraud because of the ramifications of
getting caught. Following the paper trail is about the only way it
can truly be proved, if you can find all the significant dates;
initial purchase and every time it had dealer service & each time it
actually transferred ownership, which could actually be months
between actual transactions. It is most likely a case in which one
of the previous owners had the odometer replaced due to equipment
failure and had forgotten and or failed to report it when the vehicle
was sold. You'd be surprised of the coaches that do have to have the
odometer changed due to mechanical failure. Mechanically 30 – 50K
miles is extremely difficult to detect if the vehicle had a proper
preventive maintenance program & proper upkeep, & storage. An
appraisal will let you know what the coach is worth during current
market conditions, most appraisers do not dig too deep in the
mechanics of the vehicle, did it start, ride, drive and do the all
the major components function is about the extent. I will also
consider maintenance schedules and service work, and system upgrades
or coach improvements but the value difference between two vehicles
with a mileage difference of 20 – 50K would be marginal in this class
of vehicle. I truly believe the Actual Cash Value difference would
be insignificant in your case. Now if the vehicle had 150K
difference that would be different and that would be evident in other
areas. If you had purchased it from the dealer yourself then I would
go back to that dealer and protest but since you bought it privately
your case is actually with your PO, your PO has the case with the
dealer. IMO save yourself the legal expense, use those funds to buy
fuel & enjoy the coach, because you may spend more all around then
you could gain. You liked the coach, you bought it to enjoy so enjoy
it and don't let the taste of someone else's failure, ruin your
enjoyment. You're setting yourself up for high blood pressure and
other issues. By all means report the odometer discrepancy when you
sell.
John McGinnis, Certified Appraiser, 88FC35, Louisville, KY

Read the computer on the engine for miles and hours. It is not
linked to the dash on my 94



GregoryO'Connor
94ptRomolandCa

--- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, "John McGinnis"
wrote:
>
> You said this was a private sale and your PO bought it from a
> dealer .. Proving odometer fraud is extremely difficult; dealers
are
> less likely to commit the fraud because of the ramifications of
> getting caught. Following the paper trail is about the only way
it
> can truly be proved, if you can find all the significant dates;
> initial purchase and every time it had dealer service & each time
it
> actually transferred ownership, which could actually be months
> between actual transactions. It is most likely a case in which
one
> of the previous owners had the odometer replaced due to equipment
> failure and had forgotten and or failed to report it when the
vehicle
> was sold. You'd be surprised of the coaches that do have to have
the
> odometer changed due to mechanical failure. Mechanically 30 – 50K
> miles is extremely difficult to detect if the vehicle had a proper
> preventive maintenance program & proper upkeep, & storage. An
> appraisal will let you know what the coach is worth during current
> market conditions, most appraisers do not dig too deep in the
> mechanics of the vehicle, did it start, ride, drive and do the all
> the major components function is about the extent. I will also
> consider maintenance schedules and service work, and system
upgrades
> or coach improvements but the value difference between two
vehicles
> with a mileage difference of 20 – 50K would be marginal in this
class
> of vehicle. I truly believe the Actual Cash Value difference
would
> be insignificant in your case. Now if the vehicle had 150K
> difference that would be different and that would be evident in
other
> areas. If you had purchased it from the dealer yourself then I
would
> go back to that dealer and protest but since you bought it
privately
> your case is actually with your PO, your PO has the case with the
> dealer. IMO save yourself the legal expense, use those funds to
buy
> fuel & enjoy the coach, because you may spend more all around then
> you could gain. You liked the coach, you bought it to enjoy so
enjoy
> it and don't let the taste of someone else's failure, ruin your
> enjoyment. You're setting yourself up for high blood pressure and
> other issues. By all means report the odometer discrepancy when
you
> sell.
> John McGinnis, Certified Appraiser, 88FC35, Louisville, KY
>

--- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, "Hubert"
wrote:

Do the all America thing throw more money at the problem them
you will get in return.Lawyers will love you.
Bob Loomas 1985 PT 36

>
> I recently purchased a 2003 380 Bluebird motorhome. The odometer
had
> about 24,000 miles. (private sale) When I went to transfer the
title I
> discovered that the title had a history of "no actual millage".
My
> seller had a disclosure from the dealer he purchase the motorhome
that
> the millage was accurate. I have since talked to prior owners and
have
> discovered that the actual millage is probably between 50,000 and
> 70,000. I have hired counsel and I am considering an action
against
> the dealer for fraudulent disclosure to my seller. I need to
obtain an
> appraisal of the motorhome based on the fact that the millage is
not
> accurate. Anyone have any thoughts on where I might go?
>

I agree that is generally a good way to get the data, although in my case I
know that 1) the computer has been replaced and 2) it stopped recording the
mileage accurately a few thousand miles ago (since I've owned it). It records
about 1 mile in 30, although it is irregular.

Don Bradner
90 PT40 "Blue Thunder"
Eureka, CA

On 3/23/2008 at 5:15 PM Gregory OConnor wrote:

>Read the computer on the engine for miles and hours. It is not
>linked to the dash on my 94
>
>
>
>GregoryO'Connor
>94ptRomolandCa
>
>--- In WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com, "John McGinnis"
> wrote:
>>
>> You said this was a private sale and your PO bought it from a
>> dealer .. Proving odometer fraud is extremely difficult; dealers
>are
>> less likely to commit the fraud because of the ramifications of
>> getting caught. Following the paper trail is about the only way
>it
>> can truly be proved, if you can find all the significant dates;
>> initial purchase and every time it had dealer service & each time
>it
>> actually transferred ownership, which could actually be months
>> between actual transactions. It is most likely a case in which
>one
>> of the previous owners had the odometer replaced due to equipment
>> failure and had forgotten and or failed to report it when the
>vehicle
>> was sold. You'd be surprised of the coaches that do have to have
>the
>> odometer changed due to mechanical failure. Mechanically 30 – 50K
>> miles is extremely difficult to detect if the vehicle had a proper
>> preventive maintenance program & proper upkeep, & storage. An
>> appraisal will let you know what the coach is worth during current
>> market conditions, most appraisers do not dig too deep in the
>> mechanics of the vehicle, did it start, ride, drive and do the all
>> the major components function is about the extent. I will also
>> consider maintenance schedules and service work, and system
>upgrades
>> or coach improvements but the value difference between two
>vehicles
>> with a mileage difference of 20 – 50K would be marginal in this
>class
>> of vehicle. I truly believe the Actual Cash Value difference
>would
>> be insignificant in your case. Now if the vehicle had 150K
>> difference that would be different and that would be evident in
>other
>> areas. If you had purchased it from the dealer yourself then I
>would
>> go back to that dealer and protest but since you bought it
>privately
>> your case is actually with your PO, your PO has the case with the
>> dealer. IMO save yourself the legal expense, use those funds to
>buy
>> fuel & enjoy the coach, because you may spend more all around then
>> you could gain. You liked the coach, you bought it to enjoy so
>enjoy
>> it and don't let the taste of someone else's failure, ruin your
>> enjoyment. You're setting yourself up for high blood pressure and
>> other issues. By all means report the odometer discrepancy when
>you
>> sell.
>> John McGinnis, Certified Appraiser, 88FC35, Louisville, KY
>>
>
>
>
>------------------------------------
>
>Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>