Leroy Eckert
03-07-2007, 18:02
Yeah, me to it was 1973. I have been on the yacht site as part of my little
personal study. I have a good friend who is a very good yacht mechanic, and a
partner in my airplane, we hanger fly about boats and aircraft and drag bikes
every Sunday morning a 8 AM. Sometimes we talk about other things. ???/?
How do I know if the engine thermostats cycle?
I only see them cycle upon cold start up and driving during the first say 15
minutes. Otherwise, I can place the fan in override during Winter resulting in
the temperature value being stable (fixed)at around 170-175 degrees on the flat
at 68 mph. 170-180 degrees is the thermostat low(opening value) depending on
the thermostat value installed in the coach, according to DD service manual.
Kinda sorta confusing. One would think the thermostats would cycle in cold
weather when coolant temperatures approach or are equal to normal opening
value(170-180). I cannot make it happen at any speed, cannot make it happen at
idle or high idle, and I have tried it at 32F with the fan override on.
Then, I read about Winter fronts and wonder why they are needed if the
thermostats cycle properly. Winter fronts are typically used to increase cabin
heat. 170 degrees is hot enough for me if the thermostats cycle.
The thermostats may be slowly closing restricting water flow causing hot spots,
but I do not see the evidence yet.. Perhaps I will when the engine blows, but I
do not expect that to happen.
The foregoing is why I think I am OK with a 190 degree Alarmstat. I'll take the
6% heat reduction for the drive train components under the circumstances.
It is also why I stated I might try a 185 degree, perhaps I would be pushing my
luck. I probably will not make that change. Then again, if the thermostats do
not cycle, why not? Why not is the answer I am searching for and haven't yet
found. Something to think about, particularly when you pull the mountains. 6%
temperature variance is a bunch.
Wonder if the radiator water flood will cause the thermostats to cycle.
Leroy Eckert
1990 WB-40"Smoke N Mirrors"
Niceville, FL
----- Original Message -----
From: Chuck Wheeler
To: WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, March 07, 2007 9:15 PM
Subject: RE: [WanderlodgeForum] Coolant Pressure Control Cap
I wish! I graduated about 33 years ago! Sounds like you have done your
homework. How do you know it the thermostats cycle? Most of the time you
see a slight drop on the initial opening of the thermostat(s) as the cold
coolant from the radiator is let in. After that there is a lot of mixing
going on and the and the radiator is acquiring heat from the charge air
cooler, transmission cooler etc. Boats are a different animal; those
engines are under a constant heavy load all the time. You have to run a
lower average temperature to keep the peaks within range. They usually have
a different thermostat housing that bypasses a lot of water as they have an
unlimited supply of cold coolant. There is an interesting article at:
http://www.yachtsurvey.com/comparing_diesel_types.htm
that is somewhat related.
- Chuck Wheeler -
82 FC 31 SB
Fort Worth, TX
_____
From: WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Leroy Eckert
Sent: Wednesday, March 07, 2007 9:00 PM
To: WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [WanderlodgeForum] Coolant Pressure Control Cap
Thanks for the response Chuck. According to the content of your post you
surely must have just recently graduated from college because your info does
almost perfectly follow my DD manual. 'lol
What got me started with this boondoggle was a failing Alarmstat in mid
September last year. It was intermittent and caused the engine temperature
to go above 200-205. At that time I estimated those temperatures using the
original gauge. I have since installed VMSps and can now receive actual data
from the DDEC II. It turns out that my gauge is very close to actual
temperatures.
In mid September I had no need to operate the chassis a/c. So I changed the
sensor to its published value, 195 degree and found that it did if fact
cycle around 195-205 degrees. During the time the original Alarmstat was
acting up I made notes of temperatures of all the drive train components
while operating with the fan in override because I did not care for the
temperature climbing above 200 degrees. I found that water temperature
stabilized at around 170 degrees with cool OAT and the fan in override. No
cycling of engine thermostats was evident. When I noticed the new alarmstat
pushing the temps to the upper limit I began to wonder why. I contacted BB
and asked questions. I contacted Southern Power and asked questions When I
wasn't satisfied with the answer, being the old backyard Chevy 301 (283
punched out) mechanic that I am I purchased a DD service manual set and
started researching the cooling portion. There are several set ups available
including shutters, on /off fans, modulating fans etc. There are two
thermostat ranges.
The only time I see my thermostats themselves cycle is when I begin a trip.
The temperature will climb to about 195 degrees, cycle back to about 170 and
then get on the Alarmstat cycle. I see the same thing happen in my Cummins
SLT pickup, minus the Alarmstat. I have tried to force the thermostats to
cycle this winter( the only time they will ever cycle if they are going to
do so) and have not been able to force it to happen. In summer, the chassis
a/c is on with the fan running full RPM and the temperature is stable at
190, because the Alarmstat is bypassed in this configuration.
I decided to change to a 190 degree Alarmstat to see what would happen. I
found the I received temperature reductions in drive line components of
about 6%. I have not seen any adverse reactions to the engine----- Yet, and
I do not believe it will cause a problem based on the DD manual, and its
published temperature ranges. Since you were right on, I'll send you the two
pages to look at , if you have time, and please give me your input to see if
I am ok here. <<:>>
I would need to do that off forum.
Interesting side note. I was on a boat last week with an 8v92 turbo. Those
engines are worked under power all the time and his water temp was steady at
180 degrees. That was raw water through a heat exchanger. That makes me
wonder more about all of this.
Leroy Eckert
1990 WB-40"Smoke N Mirrors"
Niceville, FL
----- Original Message -----
From: Chuck Wheeler
To: WanderlodgeForum@
yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, March 07, 2007 9:38 AM
Subject: RE: [WanderlodgeForum] Coolant Pressure Control Cap
Leroy,
I am pulling at my memory on this one and have been thing about it since I
read your posts, but I spent one summer while in college working in a shop
that rebuilt DDs. I think some of the old timers got tired of all my
questions! At that time there were shutters in front of the radiator to
control the temperature. There were also thermostats in the engines. The
reason I was given was that the DDs were two cycle engines; I think they
were Xv71s, and the function of the thermostats was primarily to get the
engine up to temperature quickly to prevent fouling. The shutters
controlled the running temperatures. The shutters were set at a higher
temperature than the full open point of the thermostats so there would be
full coolant flow through the block to prevent hot spots that would occur if
the flow was restricted. These were trucks so the shutters controlled the
"ram" air, a bus is different, but cycling the fan has the same effect. The
other thing I remember was that the DDs being two cycle engines did not have
the intake stroke to cool the pistons. This is accomplished by the
scavenging and is why the condition of the charge air cooler is very
important. Your temperature gauge only shows the average temperature of the
engine coolant. I know there were some interesting discussions with DD
factory engineers when we were doing custom work on specialized construction
equipment. They wanted to keep the average temperatures up and the peak
temperatures down. I would expect that since BB was a builder and customer
of DD that there was consulting with the factory on the design of the
cooling. I do remember lunch time discussions about the condition of charge
air coolers that the customer would not repair, or someone who had blocked
the shutters open to make their truck run cooler, and how long it would be
until we had the equipment in for a rebuild.
If you have one of the 4 cycle DDs this probably does not apply.
- Chuck Wheeler -
82 FC 31 SB
Fort Worth, TX
_____
From: WanderlodgeForum@
yahoogroups.com
[mailto:WanderlodgeForum@
yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Leroy Eckert
Sent: Monday, March 05, 2007 6:13 PM
To: WanderlodgeForum@
yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [WanderlodgeForum] Coolant Pressure Control Cap
Thanks: I have not experienced overheating problems, I am picking at it, and
I just do not yet understand why BB and their engineers specified an
Alarmstat fan controller which pushes the water temperature to the upper
limit. That is why I changed my Alarmstat to a lower temperature. I may yet
try a 185 degree just to see if it interferes with the engine thermostat
operation. I have a feeling that it will not. If I can get my coach to run
on the flat in the mid-range of DD specifications, an average of 185 degrees
I am going to do it. As always, thanks again for the input.
Again, I am posting what I am doing and do not suggest any one else try this
unless you understand how your particular system works. So far mine is doing
fine. If I blow my engine up that is my problem. If my theory works, I'm
happy and I will report.
For those who do not know, the Alarmstat, funny name for a part that
actually forces the water temperature up, is the part that cycles the
hydraulic fan on and off, assuming your chassis a/c is off and the fan
override is off. That is how mine works on the WB-40
I am going to install a supplemental water spray system, just in case I need
it.
Leroy Eckert
1990 WB-40"Smoke N Mirrors"
Niceville, FL
----- Original Message -----
From: Pete Masterson
To: WanderlodgeForum@
yahoogroups.com
Sent: Monday, March 05, 2007 12:55 PM
Subject: Re: [WanderlodgeForum] Coolant Pressure Control Cap
I had some overheating problems with my Series 60 powered unit on my
homebound trip after taking delivery in Texas...
Upon opening up the radiator, it was found to be 2/3 filled with oily-
dirt pulled into the radiator. This could not be seen from the
outside due to the charge air radiator that's located in front of the
water radiator and it could not be seen from the inside due to the
metal shroud around the fan. The area under the fan was open and
clear -- it was everything else that was blocked up.
Although a simple cleaning of the radiator could have resolved the
problem -- I elected to replace the radiator core with a more
efficient design (since about 1/2 the cost was the labor to pull the
radiator).
My current temperature readings are quite similar to yours -- except
the water temperature has yet to go much above 180 -- and my retarder
is exhaust based, and doesn't have a temperature gauge.
When the radiator was replaced, the radiator service replaced the
cap ... it's rated at 15 lbs.
I do lose about 1 quart of radiator water each trip while using the
chassis heat. There's a minor leak somewhere, but I haven't found it
yet. When the chassis heat isn't used, then I don't seem to use any
radiator water. (I carry a couple of spare gallons of premixed
coolant along...)
Pete Masterson
aeonix1@mac. com
'95 Blue Bird Wanderlodge WBDA 42'
El Sobrante, CA
On Mar 4, 2007, at 6:09 PM, Leroy Eckert wrote:
> <Snip>
> I like my drive train component temps now.
>
> Engine Oil-215
> Water Temp-Cycles between 180-190
> Transmission Temp- 170
> Retarder Temp- 220
> All recorded in flat conditions at cruise speed of 68 mph, pulling
> a 20ft trailer w/car.
>
> I do not suggest you try anything unless you fully understand your
> system, I'm simply reporting what I did.
> The foregoing presumes that all system components are in proper
> working order.
>
> My next project is to install MH's water injection system so when I
> climb the mountains next summer I'll have a water flood just in case.
>
> Alright, fire away, I have Redneck engineering paperwork on this
> one. LOL lol, lol
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
personal study. I have a good friend who is a very good yacht mechanic, and a
partner in my airplane, we hanger fly about boats and aircraft and drag bikes
every Sunday morning a 8 AM. Sometimes we talk about other things. ???/?
How do I know if the engine thermostats cycle?
I only see them cycle upon cold start up and driving during the first say 15
minutes. Otherwise, I can place the fan in override during Winter resulting in
the temperature value being stable (fixed)at around 170-175 degrees on the flat
at 68 mph. 170-180 degrees is the thermostat low(opening value) depending on
the thermostat value installed in the coach, according to DD service manual.
Kinda sorta confusing. One would think the thermostats would cycle in cold
weather when coolant temperatures approach or are equal to normal opening
value(170-180). I cannot make it happen at any speed, cannot make it happen at
idle or high idle, and I have tried it at 32F with the fan override on.
Then, I read about Winter fronts and wonder why they are needed if the
thermostats cycle properly. Winter fronts are typically used to increase cabin
heat. 170 degrees is hot enough for me if the thermostats cycle.
The thermostats may be slowly closing restricting water flow causing hot spots,
but I do not see the evidence yet.. Perhaps I will when the engine blows, but I
do not expect that to happen.
The foregoing is why I think I am OK with a 190 degree Alarmstat. I'll take the
6% heat reduction for the drive train components under the circumstances.
It is also why I stated I might try a 185 degree, perhaps I would be pushing my
luck. I probably will not make that change. Then again, if the thermostats do
not cycle, why not? Why not is the answer I am searching for and haven't yet
found. Something to think about, particularly when you pull the mountains. 6%
temperature variance is a bunch.
Wonder if the radiator water flood will cause the thermostats to cycle.
Leroy Eckert
1990 WB-40"Smoke N Mirrors"
Niceville, FL
----- Original Message -----
From: Chuck Wheeler
To: WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, March 07, 2007 9:15 PM
Subject: RE: [WanderlodgeForum] Coolant Pressure Control Cap
I wish! I graduated about 33 years ago! Sounds like you have done your
homework. How do you know it the thermostats cycle? Most of the time you
see a slight drop on the initial opening of the thermostat(s) as the cold
coolant from the radiator is let in. After that there is a lot of mixing
going on and the and the radiator is acquiring heat from the charge air
cooler, transmission cooler etc. Boats are a different animal; those
engines are under a constant heavy load all the time. You have to run a
lower average temperature to keep the peaks within range. They usually have
a different thermostat housing that bypasses a lot of water as they have an
unlimited supply of cold coolant. There is an interesting article at:
http://www.yachtsurvey.com/comparing_diesel_types.htm
that is somewhat related.
- Chuck Wheeler -
82 FC 31 SB
Fort Worth, TX
_____
From: WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Leroy Eckert
Sent: Wednesday, March 07, 2007 9:00 PM
To: WanderlodgeForum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [WanderlodgeForum] Coolant Pressure Control Cap
Thanks for the response Chuck. According to the content of your post you
surely must have just recently graduated from college because your info does
almost perfectly follow my DD manual. 'lol
What got me started with this boondoggle was a failing Alarmstat in mid
September last year. It was intermittent and caused the engine temperature
to go above 200-205. At that time I estimated those temperatures using the
original gauge. I have since installed VMSps and can now receive actual data
from the DDEC II. It turns out that my gauge is very close to actual
temperatures.
In mid September I had no need to operate the chassis a/c. So I changed the
sensor to its published value, 195 degree and found that it did if fact
cycle around 195-205 degrees. During the time the original Alarmstat was
acting up I made notes of temperatures of all the drive train components
while operating with the fan in override because I did not care for the
temperature climbing above 200 degrees. I found that water temperature
stabilized at around 170 degrees with cool OAT and the fan in override. No
cycling of engine thermostats was evident. When I noticed the new alarmstat
pushing the temps to the upper limit I began to wonder why. I contacted BB
and asked questions. I contacted Southern Power and asked questions When I
wasn't satisfied with the answer, being the old backyard Chevy 301 (283
punched out) mechanic that I am I purchased a DD service manual set and
started researching the cooling portion. There are several set ups available
including shutters, on /off fans, modulating fans etc. There are two
thermostat ranges.
The only time I see my thermostats themselves cycle is when I begin a trip.
The temperature will climb to about 195 degrees, cycle back to about 170 and
then get on the Alarmstat cycle. I see the same thing happen in my Cummins
SLT pickup, minus the Alarmstat. I have tried to force the thermostats to
cycle this winter( the only time they will ever cycle if they are going to
do so) and have not been able to force it to happen. In summer, the chassis
a/c is on with the fan running full RPM and the temperature is stable at
190, because the Alarmstat is bypassed in this configuration.
I decided to change to a 190 degree Alarmstat to see what would happen. I
found the I received temperature reductions in drive line components of
about 6%. I have not seen any adverse reactions to the engine----- Yet, and
I do not believe it will cause a problem based on the DD manual, and its
published temperature ranges. Since you were right on, I'll send you the two
pages to look at , if you have time, and please give me your input to see if
I am ok here. <<:>>
I would need to do that off forum.
Interesting side note. I was on a boat last week with an 8v92 turbo. Those
engines are worked under power all the time and his water temp was steady at
180 degrees. That was raw water through a heat exchanger. That makes me
wonder more about all of this.
Leroy Eckert
1990 WB-40"Smoke N Mirrors"
Niceville, FL
----- Original Message -----
From: Chuck Wheeler
To: WanderlodgeForum@
yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, March 07, 2007 9:38 AM
Subject: RE: [WanderlodgeForum] Coolant Pressure Control Cap
Leroy,
I am pulling at my memory on this one and have been thing about it since I
read your posts, but I spent one summer while in college working in a shop
that rebuilt DDs. I think some of the old timers got tired of all my
questions! At that time there were shutters in front of the radiator to
control the temperature. There were also thermostats in the engines. The
reason I was given was that the DDs were two cycle engines; I think they
were Xv71s, and the function of the thermostats was primarily to get the
engine up to temperature quickly to prevent fouling. The shutters
controlled the running temperatures. The shutters were set at a higher
temperature than the full open point of the thermostats so there would be
full coolant flow through the block to prevent hot spots that would occur if
the flow was restricted. These were trucks so the shutters controlled the
"ram" air, a bus is different, but cycling the fan has the same effect. The
other thing I remember was that the DDs being two cycle engines did not have
the intake stroke to cool the pistons. This is accomplished by the
scavenging and is why the condition of the charge air cooler is very
important. Your temperature gauge only shows the average temperature of the
engine coolant. I know there were some interesting discussions with DD
factory engineers when we were doing custom work on specialized construction
equipment. They wanted to keep the average temperatures up and the peak
temperatures down. I would expect that since BB was a builder and customer
of DD that there was consulting with the factory on the design of the
cooling. I do remember lunch time discussions about the condition of charge
air coolers that the customer would not repair, or someone who had blocked
the shutters open to make their truck run cooler, and how long it would be
until we had the equipment in for a rebuild.
If you have one of the 4 cycle DDs this probably does not apply.
- Chuck Wheeler -
82 FC 31 SB
Fort Worth, TX
_____
From: WanderlodgeForum@
yahoogroups.com
[mailto:WanderlodgeForum@
yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Leroy Eckert
Sent: Monday, March 05, 2007 6:13 PM
To: WanderlodgeForum@
yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [WanderlodgeForum] Coolant Pressure Control Cap
Thanks: I have not experienced overheating problems, I am picking at it, and
I just do not yet understand why BB and their engineers specified an
Alarmstat fan controller which pushes the water temperature to the upper
limit. That is why I changed my Alarmstat to a lower temperature. I may yet
try a 185 degree just to see if it interferes with the engine thermostat
operation. I have a feeling that it will not. If I can get my coach to run
on the flat in the mid-range of DD specifications, an average of 185 degrees
I am going to do it. As always, thanks again for the input.
Again, I am posting what I am doing and do not suggest any one else try this
unless you understand how your particular system works. So far mine is doing
fine. If I blow my engine up that is my problem. If my theory works, I'm
happy and I will report.
For those who do not know, the Alarmstat, funny name for a part that
actually forces the water temperature up, is the part that cycles the
hydraulic fan on and off, assuming your chassis a/c is off and the fan
override is off. That is how mine works on the WB-40
I am going to install a supplemental water spray system, just in case I need
it.
Leroy Eckert
1990 WB-40"Smoke N Mirrors"
Niceville, FL
----- Original Message -----
From: Pete Masterson
To: WanderlodgeForum@
yahoogroups.com
Sent: Monday, March 05, 2007 12:55 PM
Subject: Re: [WanderlodgeForum] Coolant Pressure Control Cap
I had some overheating problems with my Series 60 powered unit on my
homebound trip after taking delivery in Texas...
Upon opening up the radiator, it was found to be 2/3 filled with oily-
dirt pulled into the radiator. This could not be seen from the
outside due to the charge air radiator that's located in front of the
water radiator and it could not be seen from the inside due to the
metal shroud around the fan. The area under the fan was open and
clear -- it was everything else that was blocked up.
Although a simple cleaning of the radiator could have resolved the
problem -- I elected to replace the radiator core with a more
efficient design (since about 1/2 the cost was the labor to pull the
radiator).
My current temperature readings are quite similar to yours -- except
the water temperature has yet to go much above 180 -- and my retarder
is exhaust based, and doesn't have a temperature gauge.
When the radiator was replaced, the radiator service replaced the
cap ... it's rated at 15 lbs.
I do lose about 1 quart of radiator water each trip while using the
chassis heat. There's a minor leak somewhere, but I haven't found it
yet. When the chassis heat isn't used, then I don't seem to use any
radiator water. (I carry a couple of spare gallons of premixed
coolant along...)
Pete Masterson
aeonix1@mac.
'95 Blue Bird Wanderlodge WBDA 42'
El Sobrante, CA
On Mar 4, 2007, at 6:09 PM, Leroy Eckert wrote:
> <Snip>
> I like my drive train component temps now.
>
> Engine Oil-215
> Water Temp-Cycles between 180-190
> Transmission Temp- 170
> Retarder Temp- 220
> All recorded in flat conditions at cruise speed of 68 mph, pulling
> a 20ft trailer w/car.
>
> I do not suggest you try anything unless you fully understand your
> system, I'm simply reporting what I did.
> The foregoing presumes that all system components are in proper
> working order.
>
> My next project is to install MH's water injection system so when I
> climb the mountains next summer I'll have a water flood just in case.
>
> Alright, fire away, I have Redneck engineering paperwork on this
> one. LOL lol, lol
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